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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 07:29 pm
Well, guys, mostly guys, anyway.

Thank you timber. As one of the distaff wimps in this conversation, not long off the fence and inclined to get back on it at any time, I appreciate the toning down. You may have felt that my post about the after-odor of testosterone to be inappropriate, but you guys are hurling words of weaponry at each other.

This entire business is difficult enough to deal with with that in the foreground of the discussion. That obfuscates many posts. Hope I can stay here.


sumac
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 07:43 pm
Kara, this article is a mere speculation without any proofs. BTW, fuel-air explosives produce a powerful shock wave that is especially efficient in the closed bunkers killing personnel staying there. These weapons are surely not new, they exist since '50s (there were several generations of fuel employed in these weapons, and the last generation implies pyrophoric metals (Mg, Al, Ti, etc.), mixed with oxidizers (NH4NO3 and the like)).
There are no direct proofs of usage of neutron bombs that are mainly anti-tank weapons (they were introduced as a Western response to overwhelming superiority of the USSR in number and quality of tanks).
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 07:49 pm
When I can disengage for a moment from the visceral revulsion I have at bush and his "policies", and just stand back and look at this whole puddle with Iraq - I am amazed at how totally Bush has attached his entire presidency to this coming war. I mean, ALL his eggs- economy, domestic security, EVERYTHING has been made secondary to his rush to war. Again, if I can manage enough objectivity to appreciate it, this is going to be momentously interesting.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 07:54 pm
"Rush" to war - he has been rushing since last October <sigh>
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:02 pm
steissd, I know it is speculative. It still sends shivers.

I have thought the same thing, snood. I wish I could stand way back and watch it all happen, sorta detached like.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:11 pm
I hope you stay here too, sumac ... I need all the help I can get, particularly on my side of the fence Twisted Evil

As to the mini-nuke story, well, I read the article ... plenty of "Bad Science", conjecture, and real "Military Sounding" words and terms. Lots of errors there, too ... of the sort which cast doubt on the credentials of the presenters of the information. One such was an apparent confusion between Fuel-Air Weapons and Thermobaric Weapons ... two completely different categories. In fact, the bomb, the MOAB, is technically not a "Fuel-Air" Device, as it' in common with the Daisy Cutter, incorporates its own oxidizer (for any who are interested, the components are ammonium nitrate, a fine metallic powder, styrene, and binders, along with a purpose-specific detonator). I have seen BLU 82 Daisy Cutters do their thing a lot more "Up Close and Personal" that I would care to have, and I have seen very high quality film of a variety of nuclear and thermonuclear weapons (the Tactical Deployment of which was among my areas of training).
Just ain't no comparison, partner ... none at all.

I could go into much more nit-picking disection, but that would bore hell out of most folks. Suffice it to say I am highly dubious of the probity of the claim.



timber
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:13 pm
It sends shivers only to people that have slight idea of the warfare. By the way, the "mysterious" internal bleedings are characteristic to severe shock wave injuries as well. No radiation needed, just many small blood vessels are being torn, including these in throat, lungs, intestine, esophagus, liver, etc., and this completely explains symptoms in both dead bodies and survivors.
Low-grade uranium cannot be used as a main fuel for nukes, this is true. It is used as a part of the inner lining of the thermonuclear (hydrogen) bomb, but the latter weapon cannot be called low-yield; on the contrary, its blast is much more powerful than this of the fission (atomic) weapon. But it is extremely flammable, and it may be employed in the fuel-air explosive charges of the third generation as well. In such a case it may be considered a chemical explosive, and its radioactive properties are responsible only for possible side effects (radioactive environmental pollution, for example).
I am a former officer in the Soviet military, so the article did not make on me the same impression it makes on the "professional civilians".
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:18 pm
One thing I read recently on Nitrogen bombs, if they decide to use them - Tanks and other motorized vehicles are made out of some sort of spent uranium refuse that super hardens the metal. If the vehicle is around a nitrogen explosion, this will stimulate the remaining uranium and make it radioactive again. I was infantry, didn't like them death traps anyway - yech!
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:27 pm
steissd, I do not know what a "professional civilian" is, so I will speculate that it is those of us who have never served in the military. Your former profession surely does lend credulity to your comments above. However, I am more interested in your views on the morality of this pre-emptive attack that my country is planning.

This, from Tom Friedman today.


March 12, 2003
Grapes of Wrath
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


Quote:
I have a confession to make. Right after 9/11, I was given a CD by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, which included its rendition of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." I put it in my car's CD player and played that song over and over, often singing along as I drove. It wasn't only the patriotism it evoked that stirred me, but the sense of national unity. That song was what the choir sang at the close of the memorial service at the National Cathedral right after 9/11. Even though that was such a wrenching moment for our nation, I look back on it now with a certain longing and nostalgia. For it was such a moment of American solidarity, with people rallying to people and everyone rallying to the president.

And that is what makes me so sad about this moment. It appears we are on the verge of going to war in a way that will burst all the national solidarity and good will that followed 9/11, within our own country and the world.

This war is so unprecedented that it has always been a gut call ?- and my gut has told me four things. First, this is a war of choice. Saddam Hussein poses no direct threat to us today. But confronting him is a legitimate choice ?- much more legitimate than knee-jerk liberals and pacifists think. Removing Saddam ?- with his obsession to obtain weapons of mass destruction ?- ending his tyranny and helping to nurture a more progressive Iraq that could spur reform across the Arab-Muslim world are the best long-term responses to bin Ladenism. Some things are true even if George Bush believes them.

The second thing my gut says, though, is that building a decent peace in Iraq will be so much more difficult than the Bush hawks think. Iraq is the Arab Yugoslavia. It is a country, congenitally divided among Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, that was forged by British power and has never been held together by anything other than an iron fist. Transforming Iraq into a state with an accountable, consensual and decent government would be the biggest, most audacious war of choice any U.S. president has ever made ?- because it doesn't just involve getting rid of Saddam, but also building an integrated Iraq for the first time.

Which explains my third gut feeling ?- that to succeed in such an undertaking, in a country with so many wounds and pent-up resentments, will require an unrushed process that is viewed as legitimate in Iraq, the region and the world. It cannot be done if we are looking over our shoulders every day, which is why U.N. approval and allied support are so important.

My main criticism of President Bush is that he has failed to acknowledge how unusual this war of choice is ?- for both Americans and the world ?- and therefore hasn't offered the bold policies that have to go with it. Instead, the president has hyped the threat and asserted that this is a war of no choice, then combined it all with his worst pre-9/11 business as usual: budget-busting tax cuts, indifference to global environmental concerns, a gas-guzzling energy policy, neglect of the Arab-Israeli peace process and bullying diplomacy.

And this brings me to my last gut feeling: despite all the noise, a majority of decent people in the world still hunger for a compromise that forces Saddam to comply, or be exposed, and does not weaken America.

So, Mr. President, before you shake the dice on a legitimate but audacious war, please, shake the dice just once on some courageous diplomacy. Pick up where Woodrow Wilson left off: fly to Paris, bring the leaders of France, Russia, China and Britain together, along with the chairman of the Arab League summit, and offer them any reasonable amount of time for more inspections ?- if they will agree on specific disarmament benchmarks Saddam has to meet and support an automatic U.N. authorization of force if he doesn't. If France still snubs you, the world will see that you are the one trying to preserve collective security, while France only wants to make mischief. That will be very important to the legitimacy of any war.

Mr. President, I never felt more traumatized as an American than in the days after 9/11. But despite the very real threats, I also never felt more optimistic ?- because of the national unity we had, and you had, to face those threats. If whatever is left of that post-9/11 solidarity is exploded by a divisive, unilateral war in Iraq, we will not only be sacrificing good feelings, but also the key to managing this complex, dangerous world. That is our ability to stand united and with others ?- our ability to sing, together, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" and have the world at least hum along.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:31 pm
Nitrogen bomb??? What is this beast all about? Maybe, you mean the neutron bomb? Well, neutrons beam may result in transformation of the U-238, but its contents in armor are so low, that this will not make a tank a secondary nuclear bomb. But the same neutron beam is efficient in killing all the crew. I remember the period when the USSR strongly supported movement against the neutron bomb that was active in Europe in late '70s (I was a teenager by this time, but I already liked to read newspapers). The Soviet position was explicable: this weapon neutralized all the Soviet superiority in the armored vehicles. But what made the young Europeans protest against deployment of defensive weapon that could protect them against enormous tank hordes in case of war, I still have difficulties to understand. These guys and girls considered themselves being independent liberals and pacifists, but in fact they supported agenda of the Soviet Department of Defense.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:40 pm
Sorry steissd, yes - neutron Embarrassed - thanks! Smile

I didn't mean to say that it would become explosive, but active as in radiation. There is a lot of this super harden metal used in buildings also - therefore, negating some of the reason for use - kill people but leave super structures and equipment (ie, the non expendable stuff) alone. Life is considered expendable in a combat situation.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:53 pm
Surely. But implementation of the Douhet doctrine (massive Air Force activity in order to demoralize the enemy and to make its army to surrender without waging urban battles) by the USA may minimize both Army casualties and collateral damage. BTW, Mr. Rumsfeld points that the main mission of the new conventional bomb, MOAB, is making Iraqis to surrender without making serious war.
Quote:
Rumsfeld indicated that the big bomb, dropped out the back of a C-130 transport plane over a test range at Eglin Air Force Base, was as much a psychological tool as any weapon.

''The goal is to not have a war,'' he said. ``The goal is to have the pressure be so great that Saddam Hussein cooperates. Short of that . . . the goal is to have the capabilities of the coalition so clear and so obvious that there is an enormous disincentive for the Iraqi military to fight against the coalition and there's an enormous incentive for Saddam Hussein to leave and spare the world a conflict.''

The source: Huge U.S. bomb tested at North Florida air base seen also as psychological tool.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 09:29 pm
steissd, the uproar over the nuetron bomb stemmed from the civilian perception that a weapon which killed people while causing relatively little physical damage would be employed against cities and the like ... the concept of its efficacy as an incredibly potent anti-armor weapon was largely unknown, and of no particular interest, to the protestors, who essentially lobbied against a boogeyman that didn't exist.


That sort of stuff happens all the time.



timber
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 09:37 pm
BillW, I'm unaware of the use of depleted uranium in other than military application in the realms of munitions and armor, where its exceptional density and extraordinary hardness are particular benefits. I can't imagine the utility of a super-dense, hard-to-shape, outrageously expensive material in normal building construction.

steissd, More hysteria than valid public information exists as far as nuclear weapons go. That's actually pretty good, I suppose. The real implications of nukes are terrible enough in themselves, even if the fears of the uniformed are misfounded. As an officer in Soviet service, I'm sure you received training in operating in a nuclear environment, and I expect you will largely share my assessment. Correct me if I'm wrong.



timber
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 09:49 pm
Tomorrow, after I get my thoughts together a little better, I will lay out a wish-list scenario for what probably will be coming, very soon. I would appreciate it if people would knock holes in my assumptions, etc., as I know very little.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 09:54 pm
Snood -- You made a really good point back there aways about Bush hanging (one hopes literally) his presidency on the war, or so it would seem. May he crash and burn. But I doubt it. This is the bail-out kid from way back. He has never been allowed to fail publicly -- or rather, he's never had to suffer the consequences of personal and professional failure. In the meantime -- have you noticed this? -- there has been an increase in the predictions of blowback even in the mainstream media, so called. I think the diplomacy blitz of the past couple of days has been "ordered" by Bush 1, whadaya bet...
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 11:36 pm
Tartarin wrote:
That's the way I understood it. Bush sayings appropriate for any unforeseen atrocity... or something like that.

Then I thank all involved for the clarification. I'm not sure it isn't just one facet of what I assumed you were describing, but I can accept that you see it as "scripting" the Presidency and understand why you think that's a bad thing.

Again, thanks for clarifying.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 11:52 pm
It really is good practice to plan for contingencies, and to have not only means to cope with them but prepared statements to announce them. There is potential for abuse, yes ... but it is good practice nonetheless. There are plenty of more substantial concerns to be addressed, by far.



timber
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2003 12:29 am
timber

I think everyone having been in the military forces within the last 50 years or so got trained to operate in a nuclear environment - we had a "nuclear alarm' at least once per week (which was really getting 'funny' when there was at the same time 'fire on board' and 'aircraft attack').
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2003 02:50 am
Walter - you don't object to news services keeping prominent peoples' biographies for quick reference in case obituary must be prepared? Or to ladies travelling with black dresses in case they must attend a memorial service? Truly I see no distinction between the above and the "canned" statements mentioned here.

Of greater interest right now is the fate of Congressman Moran of Maryland, who was told in no uncertain terms not to run for re-election after being quoted as saying "... we wouldn't be getting into this war if it weren't for the Jewish lobby.."

Btw, their cohorts do rather seem to be crowding this thread - the radiotechnician is my favorite, with the alleged medic who doesn't know a T-70 from a tractor a close second <G>
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