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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 08:32 am
the real agenda for Iraq; http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/iraq_mcdonalds.jpg
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 08:37 am
timber

As a judge or criminal prosecutor, with several fellows sitting in front of me, and three of them were guilty of selling eight guns to a street gang, but the guy on the end had only sold two, I wouldn't be nominating that guy on the end for sainthood.

If later on, I saw he was running for Sheriff, I'd suffer concern.

re Lola's posts...I grant that we cannot validly assume collusion between, say, the Bush family and Osama's family. But we can surely note the further example (on top of a bazillion others, eg Perle, Rumsfeld, Kissinger) of the economic relationships between these people and entities, the Defence Department, and the defence industries in the US and around the world.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 08:52 am
I think it's important to keep these relationships in mind -- really important, Blatham. Because they cannot help but influence policy. It's more than likely that, had these relationships not existed, we would not have invaded Iraq (just to single out one of many US policy-driven actions over the past twenty years which have come from the same group). If we were to make a graphic showing the coincidence of chickenhawks and industrialists with military and commercial action, then colored the $$ earned by them/spent by the American taxpayer in red, and colored the death and destruction caused in blue, we'd have a very colorful banner for the 2004 election...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 09:32 am
Tartarin

Sigh...I know.

ps to your earlier question here or elsewhere re Szasz...he was still active in the mid seventies, but since then I really haven't heard much of him, and I'd just assumed age had taken its toll.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 10:44 am
Sick transit.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 10:52 am
What ever happened to "conflict of interest?" c.i.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 10:56 am
Citizen Imposter: The only conflict we recognize is Operation Freedom. There is no such thing as conflict within America. Of any kind. We make sure of that. Your name is in our file...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 06:04 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote: "I've just read that all these "chemical weapons" have been found on a "agricultural compound", they had not been weaponized and might simply be pesticides."

Walter, I believe the matter is being given very careful scrutiny. [..] Even if the barrels prove inconclusive, should the missiles be what they seem, the barrels will make little difference.


Read in the paper today - page five, short items - that the US command has retracted its statement about the suggested 278 missiles with a chemical charge. Dont know if that retraction had come up here yet.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 06:08 pm
More on the WMD hunt:

Quote:
Britain and the United States have bypassed the United Nations to establish a secret team of inspectors to resume the search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. [..]

No banned weapons have so far been found.

The decision to set up a new group of inspectors, dubbed US-movic because they are an American-led rival to Unmovic, will infuriate the UN.

Kofi Annan, the secretary general, pointedly reminded Britain and the US this week that Unmovic still has a mandate to carry out inspections.

Last night the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, added his criticism by saying that war against Iraq was a foregone conclusion months before the first shot was fired.

In a scathing attack on Britain and the US, Mr Blix accused them of planning the war "well in advance" and of "fabricating" evidence against Iraq to justify their campaign.

Mr Blix told the Spanish daily El Pais: "There is evidence that this war was planned well in advance. Sometimes this raises doubts about their attitude to the [weapons] inspections." [..]

A spokesman for Mr Blix, Ewen Buchanan, said the US-led team had tried and failed to recruit some of his staff.

Paul Rogers, professor of peace studies at Bradford University, said the existence of the secret team would lead to a major dispute. "You are more likely to find what you want if you do it yourself," he said. "If this team finds a smoking gun, people will not believe it."


I also wondered about another quote from this article.

Quote:
A cabinet minister has told the Guardian that Saddam Hussein's failure to use chemical weapons was not an indication of their absence. They had been dismantled and their contents hidden around the country.

"The regime has not had time to reassemble the things," a British official said.

"You will not find a factory of gleaming missiles," a source said. "They would have been broken down ages ago."


Now suspicions that Iraq still had things it shouldn't have were pretty widespread - thats why the UN weapon inspectors were there, in the first place. There were two points about not granting the UN any of the additional time it requested to find these things, however, I seem to remember.

One involved an acute danger to world security, that the continued status quo could not safeguard against; a danger that the US, after 9/11, had full rights to act against if it deemed the danger imminent enough. Yet apparently whatever illicit materials Iraq did have, were so far removed from usability in WMD that Saddam's state is now said to not have "had [the] time to reassemble the things" during the weeks of run-up to the war and the three weeks of war itself.

If the UN weapon inspections at least, apparently, had forced the disassemblance of the illicit materials into parts unusable for offensive action within any short time, how imminent can that threat really be said to have been, and how desperately unsuccessful, as the Bush gvt claimed it to be, the UN containment policy, when it came to WMD?

The second argument that came up in that last rush for war, I believe, involved claims that there had been delays enough and Iraq should come up with the various materials or proof of the materials' destruction pronto. The suggested ultimatum was, I believe - nine days? Seven? A proposal of the "minor" SC countries for an extended ultimatum of a few weeks was swept off the table as irrelevant.

Yet now, apparently, the lack of WMD use in the war is because even the three+ weeks in question hadnt been enough time for the regime - even when its very life was in danger - to reassemble any of these things. How realistic, then, can that last ultimatum for them to come up with the goodies be said to have been?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 07:01 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, signs are emerging that a puppet regime may be exactly what the war's intellectual authors have planned. The most troubling indication was the U.S. airlift into Nasiriya's smoking ruins of a gentleman named Ahmed Chalabi.


I understand there are many reservations against Chalabi, for concrete reasons - and in general against the INC, for the more abstract reason of being associated with a Pentagon link.

What's the suggested alternative, though? Who or what are the Chalabi criticasters suggesting instead?

The BBC did have an interesting session of its "Hard Talk" program yesterday with somebody from the INC on videolink and two other Iraqis representing other groups in the studio. The latter two pleaded for swift elections (though without saying how these should be organised right now), pointed out that most of the INC consisted of long-time exiles who hadnt been in the country for decades (but that could be said to plead for them, too - clean hands re: the Baath regime), warned against the extent to which the INC was indebted to the US army, and protested the suggested "privatisation" to American companies of the oil and other industries. Didnt write down their names and organisations though.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 07:51 pm
Militant Democracy

MacGreggor Knox, in the Financial Times, wrote:
Europeans may wish to believe that a small coterie of "neo-conservative" maniacs has hijacked US policy. They may assume that the natural order of things as they perceive it - the restraint of American power through European wisdom - will sooner or later triumph. But such expectations are delusional. Those who find militant Islam terrifying have clearly never seen a militant democracy.


Interesting take.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 07:55 pm
Tartar, And please keep it there in a locked box. Wink
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 08:01 pm
The whole Chalabi/INC thing bothers hell outta me. All in all, it seems a one-way road to an assassination. I sorta feel sorry for the guy. I suspect religious issues will sorely complicate the reconstruction of an Iraqi Government. Iran will try to play a key role, if it can. They see it as their sole hope of mitigating the effects of US presence in the region.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 09:46 pm
Quote:
KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. troops have found 11 mobile laboratories buried south of Baghdad that are capable of biological and chemical uses, a U.S. general said Monday.

There were no chemical or biological weapons with the containerized labs, which measure 20 feet square. But soldiers recovered "about 1,000 pounds" of documents from inside the labs, and the United States will examine those papers further, said Brig. Gen. Benjamin Freakley of the Army's 101st Airborne Division ...

... U.N. weapons inspection chief Hans Blix said his inspectors never found evidence of such labs.

On March 7, Blix told the U.N. Security Council, "Several inspections have taken place at declared and undeclared sites in relation to mobile production facilities. Food-testing mobile laboratories and mobile workshops have been seen, as well as large containers with seed-processing equipment. No evidence of proscribed activities have so far been found ... "


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/14/sprj.irq.labs/index.html

Of course, these are dual-use pizza delivery and cropseed treatment units ... perfectly innocent. There's bound to be a perfectly logical reason why they were buried near a munitions loading assembly facility. No doubt coincidence is involved; theses things always turn out to be not what at first they might have seemed. I imagine the half-ton of paperwork buried along with them will clear this silly misunderstanding right up.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 10:09 pm
WHEW!:

Quote:
Bush vetoes Syria war plan

Julian Borger in Washington, Michael White, Ewen MacAskill in Kuwait City and Nicholas Watt
Tuesday April 15, 2003
The Guardian
[Excerpt]

The White House has privately ruled out suggestions that the US should go to war against Syria following its military success in Iraq, and has blocked preliminary planning for such a campaign in the Pentagon, the Guardian learned yesterday.
In the past few weeks, the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, ordered contingency plans for a war on Syria to be reviewed following the fall of Baghdad.

Meanwhile, his undersecretary for policy, Doug Feith, and William Luti, the head of the Pentagon's office of special plans, were asked to put together a briefing paper on the case for war against Syria, outlining its role in supplying weapons to Saddam Hussein, its links with Middle East terrorist groups and its allegedly advanced chemical weapons programme. Mr Feith and Mr Luti were both instrumental in persuading the White House to go to war in Iraq.

Mr Feith and other conservatives now playing important roles in the Bush administration, advised the Israeli government in 1996 that it could "shape its strategic environment... by weakening, containing and even rolling back Syria"

However, President George Bush, who faces re-election next year with two perilous nation-building projects, in Afghanistan and Iraq, on his hands, is said to have cut off discussion among his advisers about the possibility of taking the "war on terror" to Syria.

"The talk about Syria didn't go anywhere. Basically, the White House shut down the discussion," an intelligence source in Washington told the Guardian.....

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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2003 11:27 pm
timber

Knox's piece (the last paragraph quoted above) lists the bad guys: actors, intellectuals, and Europeans. He doesn't explicitly say that they have small penises.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Apr, 2003 12:13 am
While hospitals, schools and every government building in Iraq has been plundered, there's one government building that remains completely untouched. The one government building that wasn't targeted by US bombs, and the one government building that it was decided would be protected after the so called "liberation". Seventy US troops and a dozen APC's are currently guarding the Ministry of Oil. And the warmongering rednecks continue to assert the lie that this invasion was about liberation. It was nothing but armed robbery writ large. Armed robbery and mass murder.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Apr, 2003 12:41 am
The ministry of defense is also guarded.

But the ministry of education and the ministry agriculture(IMHO crucial for the future of Iraq) are destroyed
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Apr, 2003 04:33 am
Wilso wrote:
While hospitals, schools and every government building in Iraq has been plundered, there's one government building that remains completely untouched. The one government building that wasn't targeted by US bombs, and the one government building that it was decided would be protected after the so called "liberation". Seventy US troops and a dozen APC's are currently guarding the Ministry of Oil. And the warmongering rednecks continue to assert the lie that this invasion was about liberation. It was nothing but armed robbery writ large. Armed robbery and mass murder.


I'd like to hear your comments on that, Timber.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Apr, 2003 04:47 am
But unless the oil fields are secured and the oil infrastructure of the country protected, Iraq will not be able to pay American corporations for rebuilding the other parts of Iraq which the American led war destroyed.

You are right Wilso it is robbery with violence.

Its like breaking into a house, throwing out the head of the household, smashing up every room except for the one with the really nice furniture in it, installing your own man, then doing a "deal" with him whereby he sells you the choicest pieces so there's enough cash to pay you to repair the damage you did.

The US gets the oil and more importantly the control of oil. US corporations get fat contracts to repair the damage the US did, this to be paid for by Iraq from oil it is obliged to sell to the US. Its sweet crude too, with a low sulphur content, but nothing could be sweeter or cruder than this scam.
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