The US, UN & Iraq II

the perception that the US is militarist, uncaring about peoples' lives, and out of control as regards international laws and humanitarian principles.

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"The Chick was in the way!"

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"The Iraqis are sick people, and we are the chemotherapy,' said Cpl. Ryan Dupre. 'I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him."

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"They pointed their rifles at the pavements and screamed at motorists to stop - one who did not, an old man in an old car, was shot in the head in front of two French journalists"

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...it helps if you have some kind of a soccer team, or some nuclear weapons...

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or are imbed with the, oh, never mind

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Can't find the story about Al-Jazeera's hot foot out of Iraq.

I did see irate Iraqis screaming at wacko Human Sheilds, and it was during this footage that the FOX news said Al-Jazeera had also recieved threats, and had gone to the Kuwaiti border for their safety, stating Iraqis said "they have been lying to us." I believe the story, but will seek it out in print to satisfy all of us.

Guess what? Janeane Garafalo will need to make good on her promise to Bill O'Reilly to present Bush with roses and fruitcake. She said she would do so if there were not hundreds of thousands of casualties, and if the Iraqis were jubilant in the streets and welcomed US troops as liberators.

What's this news about radiation dangers in a building we entered in Iraq? The device measuring radiation went through the roof when they entered...

Anybody heard?

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Blatham

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. The previous post by Geli is still in my mind. I think what we are witnessing here is the arrogance of the victor. Its not enough just to threaten. Threats must be implemented to show they were not meant lightly. Those killings demonstrate to anyone who cares to observe, that force is prepared to take on and prevail over truth. That the sword is mightier than the pen.

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Sofia, yesterday a Marine unit investigating the Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Complex, known to and just recently ... February, I believe, cleared by UN Inspectors, discovered a labrynthine complex of maze-like tunnels and reinforced subterranean bunkers which were unknown to, or at least unmentioned by, the UN Inspectors. In a number of the tunnels and rooms, radiation levels were beyond the scale of the measuring devices. Aboveground, in the undisguised facility visited by Dr. AlBaradie's folks, all was found to be pretty much as the UN Inspectors had claimed; no indicatiuon of any prohibited activity. Apparently the Inspectors didn't notice the doors to the elevator to the basement when they made their determination the facility was "Safe". While not exactly a "Smoking Gun", the development calls into serious question the efficacy of The Inspection Process. Much, much more will be heard about this. It should be borne in mind that the IAEA previously certified Iran, North Korea, and Pakistan "Nuclear Safe" also.

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Steve,

In re. your comments on Timber's account of the palestine Hotel incident.

Timber stripped away most of the emotional adjectives, and suppositions to write a straight forward account based on the most likely facts. The earlier media report was filled with prejorative statements, and unsupported opinion. Timber merely demonstrated the biases contained in the media report. You put all the color back in.

There are serious doubts that the tank was the actual proximate cause of the journalists death and injury, though the tank did fire around in the direction of the hotel. It seems more likely to some, that some other source was responsible for the unfortunate incident. Perhaps not. In battle often things happen that no one can ever explain, or understand. I'm pretty sure that the reporters in the hotel gave a sincere and accurate report of what they thought happened. Such observers are often wrong. The truth of battle is hidden by a whole range of factors, and even with the wonderful technology available to the United States military, often unknowable. Those who go into war zones must understand that they are placing themselves at grave risk. War is not a half-hour thriller that ends with all the little questions resolved.

Until there is overwhelming, undeniable, hard evidence that American troops are not living up to the standards set by our Nation, will I even question the honor of those troops. They are not going to engage in the criminal tactics employed by the enemy. From time to time, an American soldier may go out of bounds, but rarely and never as part of an approved broad policy.

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Steve wrote:

<Its not enough just to threaten. Threats must be implemented to show they were not meant lightly.>

Sorry to take a snippet of your comment but I would take issue with one word---Threat/threaten. These are terms most likely to be used by thugs like Saddam or Bin Laden. Threats are loaded with implications of dire consequences but rarely carried out due to the shallow nature of those who issue such ludicrous statements.
Good examples are the many such statements issued by Saddam and his buffoon called the "minister of information".

Threat or to threaten is not an American term---I think it is more Middle eastern or perhaps "Old Europe".

A more accurate word with somewhat similar conotation would be
"Warning". A warning has more of a defensive ring ----in order for the use of this word not to be taken lightly---a "warning" is sometimes followed with decisive action.
This is more of an American term---thank you.

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Perception. You are a joke!

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I'll drink to that ..... beer tender bring me a bar.

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deleted

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You want the truth?----You want the truth?---You can't handle the truth!

Tsk--Tsk---temper --temper

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Asherman wrote

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Until there is overwhelming, undeniable, hard evidence that American troops are not living up to the standards set by our Nation, will I even question the honor of those troops. They are not going to engage in the criminal tactics employed by the enemy. From time to time, an American soldier may go out of bounds, but rarely and never as part of an approved broad policy.

Well, I think this is a tad romantic. First of all, there is no reason to assume 'honor' in soldiers generally than to assume it in teachers, politicians, or lawyers. And there is a good case for arguing that military training works in converse to principles we otherwise consider of highest value. For example, on PBS news last week, in a discussion of the war amongst ex-military commanders, one fellow said "Marines go and kill and ask about it all later". He said this pridefully, boastfully. Of course, there's a dilemma here, in that militaries are needed. But let's not get carried away about the goodness of soldiers, or we'll bring in the rape cases et al.

Further, the standards one might think ought to be met are not national standards at all (Iraqi soldiers are doing that). Whether criminal acts are engaged in by US military more or less than other nation's forces ought probably to be decided by someone other than an ex-military chap from those forces. A claim that is appearing presently is that the Brits are operating in a manner which produces significantly less civilian deaths and mutiliations than is the US. That may not be so, but it is surely possible.

And, of course, though Asherman believes this whole enterprise meets international legal standards, as nimh has pointed out here (or perhaps on another thread), that is an article of faith as much as a valuable legal opinion.

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Breaking News BBC

A prominent Iraqi Shia cleric Sayyid Abd al-Majid al-Khoei is reported to have been murdered in the central Iraqi town of Najaf. Relatives of the cleric - who returned to Iraq from exile earlier this week - say he was stabbed to death inside the Imam Ali mosque

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Obviously, an acting mob is part of this war against terrorism:

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Tens of thousands of people are roaming the city in the second round of looting in the city since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

The Red Cross says a hospital was ransacked and others has closed their doors because of the street violence and looting.

American soldiers are making little or no effort to stop them carrying off TV sets, refrigerators, carpets and other items. (source: AP)

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A Shia cleric in the central Iraqi holy city of Najaf has been assassinated, a spokesman for the London-based al-Khoei foundation has said.

Assailants armed with knives attacked Abdul Majid al-Khoei inside the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf - one of the holiest sites for Shia Muslims, Fadhel Milani told BBC News Online.

A colleague who had been accompanying Mr al-Khoei confirmed his murder in a telephone call to the foundation, Dr Milani said.

Mr al-Khoei was the son of the late Grand Ayatollah al-Khoei, spiritual leader of Iraq's Shia Muslims at the time of the 1991 Gulf War.

Dr Milani said Mr al-Khoei had been in the mosque with four friends when he noticed another cleric, Haydar Kilidar, was coming under attack.

Mr al-Khoei attempted to protect Mr Kilidar but was himself attacked by the crowd, Dr Milani said.

Both men were killed.

Mr al-Khoei, who left Iraq 12 years ago, had returned to Najaf from London two weeks ago.

He had hoped to help restore order following the downfall of the Ba'athist regime and was working in co-operation with the coalition, Dr Milani said.

Although Mr al-Khoei was usually accompanied by coalition forces, the officers do not enter the mosque and so were unable to rescue him, Dr Milani said.

Dr Milani said that he believed Mr al-Khoei's association with the coalition forces had provoked the attack, saying "certain people did not want him in that role".

He said other colleagues from London would now "think twice" before returning to Iraq.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/2936887.stm

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http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/iraq/s_128200.html

More on the Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Site, excerpts from an article filed by the embed on the scene:

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By Carl Prine
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Wednesday, April 9, 2003

SOUTH OF BAGHDADThe inspectors came away with nothing.

"They went through that site multiple times, but did they go underground? I never heard anything about that," said physicist David Albright, a former IAEA Action Team inspector in Iraq from 1992 to 1997. Officials at the IAEA could not be reached for comment. (emphasis added by timber) ...

... Mindful of nuclear weapons inspectors, ISIS said the Iraqis developed methods to thwart them when they visited Al-Tuwaitha.

"Iraq developed procedures to limit access to these buildings by IAEA inspectors who had a right to inspect the fuel fabrication facility. On days when the inspectors were scheduled to visit, only the fuel fabrication rooms were open to them. Usually, employees were told to take their rooms so that the inspectors did not see an unusually large number of people," according to a 1999 report Albright wrote with Corey Gay and Khidhir Hamza for ISIS.
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So the Marine's discovery makes the former atomic inspector wonder if the Iraqis went to the colossal expense of pumping enough water to build the underground city because no reasonable inspector would think anything might be built underground there.

Nobody would expect it," Hamza said. "Nobody would think twice about going back there."
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"I do not believe the latest round of inspections included anything underground, so anything you find underground would be very suspicious. It sounds absolutely amazing."
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"I've never seen anything like it, ever," said Seegar, who leads a company of combat engineers turned into combat grunts. "How did the world miss all of this? Why couldn't they see what was happening here?"
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The offices underground, under unlit signs warning of "Gas/Gaz," are stuffed with videos and pictures, all showing how this complex was built, largely over the last four years after formal international inspections ended. (emphasis added by timber) The Marines haven't even mapped all the subterranean tunnels veining the site.
...

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Cronkite Calls Bush 'Grossly Arrogant' For War In Iraq

POSTED: 7:00 a.m. EDT April 9, 2003
UPDATED: 9:42 a.m. EDT April 9, 2003

ELON, N.C. -- Former CBS news anchorman Walter Cronkite called President George W. Bush "grossly arrogant" for invading Iraq without the approval of the United Nations.

http://www.wral.com/news/2099896/detail.html

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My My---I wonder what glib response Dr. Blix will have for this finding?

Great bit of news Timber

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A column of US armored vehicles has been reported to be moving toward Mosul from Arbil. The tanks have been identified by at least one reporter as M1A2 variants, which would indicate 4ID. Reports of C-17s offloading heavy equipment at Northern airbases the past few evenings would be consistent with this. I haven't seen photos, so I remain unconvinced one way or the other ... telling an M1A1 from an M1A2 is sorta like trying to tell a '62 Chevy Bel Aire from a '62 Chevy Impala ... ya gotta see the grill, the tail lights, and the fender chrome to be sure.

A suicide bombing in Baghdad reportedly has injured at least 4 marines at a checkpoint. The only confirmed death is the bomber, though there may have been fatalities among either marines or nearby civilians. The blast wasreportedly "Large", and did "considerable damage". The area is reportedly near the Palestine Hotel.
Scattered firefights have been occurring throughout the city, suburbs, and elsewhere, some of them "Intense", and one of these involves hostiles which engaged Marines from a fortified mosque North of Baghdad. Marines and Soldiers alike are reporting the enemy KIA number disproportionately few Iraqis, and particularly rare are Iraqi military; there are far more non-indigenous paramilitary turning up than either Iraqi military or paramilitary. E-mails I've received mention Jordanians and particularly Syrians as notable among identified enemy kills. One of my correspondents mentioned it was getting to be like "Varmint Plinking" with tanks. Another mentions that "The Badguys just walk into our fire fields and get shot to pieces ... not very bright"
There have been captures of both Russian and French arms clearly of post '91 manufacture, obviously violations of UN Sanctions. Lots of weaponry recovered has been identified as of Jordanian origin.

Tikrit may be the scene of The Final Battle, and it could be fierce indeed. Indications of "Subsantial Iraqi military and paramilitary activity are evident in the town and its environs. Several hundred Armored Fighting Vehicles and artillery pieces known to have been possessed by Republican Guard units remain unaccounted for, while the equipment known to have been possessed by the regular Iraqi military and most of the Republican Guards' known equipment has been destroyed or captured. The War ain't over by a longshot.

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The US, UN & Iraq II

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