The US, UN & Iraq II

The famous trick. first you say "I dont want to"
And some time later you add to it: "But if the people want me to, i will do it for the future of the country"

You'll see.

Walter below is an excerpt from your quote:

The blame, he says, lies with the Iraqi military failure.

"Why did the Iraqis not blow up the bridges over the Tigris and Euphrates to prevent the invaders from reaching their planned targets?" he asks. "It is a disgrace that these huge Iraqi troops relaxed idly and woke up to the roar of gunfire on all sides. It is now clear that the traitors are many and those who gave in to the Satan temptation outnumber them."

I propose another line of blame---Saddam always killed the messenger----who ever told him that he could not win militarily was executed. Saddam was totally out of touch with reality--I think that was evident during the first Gulf war. It was all stupid bravado---he and his sons had been killing and manipulating people for so long he thought he was a God. Another such delusional mental case was Caligula----they both have discovered that gods bleed and die just like people.

Tank barrel elevation can be gained by the tank sitting on a ramp. I was listening to an NPR reporter at the time of the tank firing on the hotel. The mike was open, there were no out going shots, the reporter was calm until the tank shell hit the 14th floor.

walter

thanks for the link to the Toronto Star article by Fisk.

I made a mistake. The tv footage I saw showed the Al Jazeera offices destroyed from beyond the bridge with a tank on it, but it was an aircraft/missile strike that did the damage, not another tank.

The rest of Fisk's report about the attack on the Palestine confirms the story I had pieced together myself and backs up the other eye witness reports.

Timber I'm sure there will be an enquiry. Do you think the results will be made public in this century?

How does Fisk do it -- every time!

Tartarin

Well of course some rate Fisk as a thoroughly professional and highly esteemed journalist, who tries to tell it how he sees it without fear or favour.

Others of course say he is the half brother of Yasser Arafat, Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, because he sometimes pierces the lies and distortions of 'established media'. Or should that be embedded media. Yes think I like embedded better. It has a comfort factor which I think is appropriate.

Fisk of the Toronto Star deserves a medal. Our government keeps lying, and people who know better must reveal all the lies that our government seems so easy to share with the world. I would only suggest that somebody provide protection for Fisk, because I truly believe he's now in danger. c.i.

frolic, Your quote, "The famous trick. first you say "I dont want to"
And some time later you add to it: "But if the people want me to, i will do it for the future of the country." I'd just like to add that that's nothing new in the world of politics. c.i.

The Embeds feed large e-mail mailing lists as well, naturally fousing more on personal observations regarding the excercize of reporting a war from within a unit in the action. A common theme is how different military life is from civilian, and how solicitous and accommodating the troops are. There seems to be a bit of wonder that very young men, while exhuberant and even somewhat rowdy, are truly caring of their journalistic tag-alongs ... sometimes, in the opinion of some reporters, too caring. One cameraman remarked that a husky Lance Corporal in full battledress pinned him to the floor of an Amtrack as light automatic fire was pinging off the hull, complete with sparkles and corkscrewing tracer ricochets that didn't get taped.

Dys wrote:

some months ago a fellow poster on this forum came up with what i assume to be his most scathing indictment of me he could think of, he called me a poet; so perception this one is dedicated to you:
what do the dead say?
does the soldier's tongue blather of honor?
does the child's lips ask for her heart back?
the old man does not ask for water.
does freedom ring in the ears of the dead?
does the despot beg for mercy?
to the dead it doesn't matter,
what do the dead say?
nothing.

Gee I go out for groceries and come back and find a poem dedicated to me---brings a tear to the eye.

I know you want me to feel guilt for the dead Iraqis but for that you should have dedicated the poem to Saddam---he is to blame for their deaths.

As for the dead American and British soldiers I know of no words that will adequately express my gratitude so I will say simply--thank you.

Why I'd be a terrible reporter:

An Al-Jazeera correspondent was killed, and his cameraman wounded, during an engagement between US and Iraqi forces yesterday here in Bahghdad. A US A-10 Attack Fighter was seen to attack the general location at the time of the incident, and multiple impacts were noted spanning the facade of the building in which the death and injuries occurred.

A few hours later, as the battle continued to escalate and expand, the chaos of combat resulted in the deaths of two other cameramen and the wounding of three staffers, as US fire fell on the building housing the Baghdad Bureau Office of Rueters. Whether the US units were directly returning hostile fire, or not, as alleged by journalists on the scene, is disputed by US officials.


I just can't get the spin the way Fisk does. His version is so much more colorful than mine. That's surely why he gets the big bucks.

MALCOLM MORRISON
Canadian Press

Wednesday, April 09, 2003
CREDIT: (AP/Jerome Delay)


TORONTO (CP) - "Stock markets declined Wednesday as positive news out of Iraq made a limited impression on investors, who are increasingly concerned about the shape of the U.S. economy and corporate balance sheets."

When the fun falls through and the rent comes due .......


http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp?id=87CF3196-0A67-4739-9457-9D3BF2FB100C

Gelis, I've never been a believer of what the financial pundits disgorge from one day to the next. They just don't know what the heck they're talking about. The only sure thing in the market is that it's gonna remain volatile for awhile - with or without the war's end. I've been "concerned" about the US economy for the past four years, and that's not about to change any time soon. We must first see profits and good cash flow for the blue chip companies. Until then, nothing is gonna change. c.i.

Will the US finish the job?

CI, I was startled when I looked at the market today ... I expected to see just the opposite.

What is your take on the tax cuta?

It's true Sofia, I meant the non-embeds. Sorry for error. I believe I'm getting old.

and then again perhaps the war is just starting:
Shi'ite Group to Boycott U.S. Talks on Iraq!
By Jonathan Wright

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The main Iraqi Shi'ite opposition group said on Wednesday it would boycott a political meeting the United States is trying to arrange in southern Iraq (news - web sites) next week because of the U.S. military presence.
"We are not going to take part in this meeting in Nassiriya. We think this is part of General Garner's rule of Iraq and we are not going to be part of that project at all," said Hamid al-Bayati, the London representative of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI).
The Bush administration has appointed retired Lt. Gen Jay Garner to run civilian affairs in Iraq alongside the U.S. and British military presence.
The United States has identified some 40 Iraqi politicians it wants to take part in preliminary discussions on the political future of the country after the collapse of the Baathist government of President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).

Gelis, The tax cuts if it's ever approved by congress will be a bandaide to our economy. What needs to happen is our blue chip companies must begin to show some profits. They've been too slow in reacting to our depressed economy, and kept the workforce too long while inventories continued to increase. Pay scales and benefits for top management is too high; they're not worth that much in any environment. Many still get bonus' for doing a poor job. Doesn't make any sense in this environment when they continue to lay off by the thousands. Those multi-million dollar bonus will keep many people employed for another year. The drag on our economy from this war is going to be felt for a long time. c.i.

nimh says:

That is pretty funny. I have always reacted the same way to Rumsfeld. He speaks patronizingly to his crowd, and I have trouble hearing his message because I hear first his condescension.

dys says:



That hits me where you intended, as poetry should. It says things that ordinary posts here cannot.

timber wrote:



This makes perfect sense to me. It is ludicrous to think that the US would target journalists. As supremely efficient engines of war, our forces would be wasting time to do so.

tartarin said:


tartarin, I heard this interview. It was with the military correspondent of the London Telegraph. He commented that Saddam must be the worst general in history, to have made so many mistakes, signal among them being not blowing up bridges to slow US troops on their way to Baghdad.

frolic wrote:



frolic, I heard a 45-minute interview tonight on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, talking to the head of the post-Iraq reorganization plan in some govt dept. It was interesting, and the spokesperson was articulate and informed. (Whew, are they organized or what?) The issue came up of leaders, and Mr. Chalabi was tops on the list of those discussed. The comment was made that his weakness was that he would lack credibility on the ground because he has been out of Iraq so long, decades in fact. And he seems seriously not to want to govern longer than just to stabilize the country.

This interview ranged to cover the costs of reconstructing Iraq, and the costs are staggering. I had heard in another talk on NPR (bless NPR, they will get double their usual take from me...) that Iraq already has 65 billion in debt that will have to be restructured if they are to get out from under enormous debt service; then, this interview tonight pointed out, they have reparations from the Gulf War to pay and payments out of the Oil for Food deal that take up all but 3% of their income from oil. To get their oil industry up and running, to help with reconstruction, would cost a billion or two, upfront.

The earlier show (yesterday or the day before) made a point that if Iraq does not exist as the same country, those enormous loans and debt could just be ignored and unpaid. But then, the opposing view says, no one will invest in Iraq if debts and obligations can so easily be erased; who knows how long and how stable this new government will be.

Walter said:



Well, who knows. Some people are honest and straight-forward. We have trouble believing what anyone says anymore.

timber said:



That comment is not worthy of you. He has been researching and writing about the Middle East for years. He is considered by most to be a fair-minded and even handed journalist, and if he has the gift of writing that is expository and descriptive, you ought not define it as "spin."

About the Palestine Hotel.

I am not a military expert. I don't know if tanks can aim as high as a 15th floor.
I can tell that I saw some footage, by an (ugh) French TV channel in which an American tank moves its gun, aims calmly and shoots toward the building (I have to suppose the camera was on the building).
I can also tell that this version is shared by virtually every journalist in the Palestine Hotel who did not film (Italian, Spanish, British, German, Argentinian, French, Mexican).
These reporters have also informed that members of the Iraqi Information Ministry used to be all the time at the Hotel lobby (not in the reporter's room).

Perhaps they are all wrong.
Perhaps there were snipers in the upper floors and no one noticed.
Perhaps the firing tank was not the one who hit the journalists.

Let me doubt they are all wrong.
Let me point out that NO ONE of us was there, so we rely on whatever sources are available and credible to us. If the sources are very different, an opinion gap is the logical result.
I stick to my original presumption: it was not a deliberate attack, the US soldiers confused the camera lenses with snipers and, as in the times of Pancho Villa, they decided to "shoot first and find out later".
The official US versions that followed stink of cover-up. A clumsy political decision, IMO. That, and not the shooting, is what makes me sick.