0
   

The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 11:25 am
Appears the US is targeting journalists now, Al Jazeera was hit in two other incidents.
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 11:30 am
BillW wrote:
Appears the US is targeting journalists now, Al Jazeera was hit in two other incidents.

I keep wanting to write, "You can't REALLY believe that," but I guess you do. And mostly, that fact makes me sad. I could take a lot of time to explain why, but why bother? I doubt you would want to know. You seem happy thinking the worst of the US and our men and women in uniform. Why would you care what I think about your disdain for our troops? Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 11:32 am
I have no disdain for the troops but plenty for you, but you don't have the capability to understand that.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 11:47 am
I keep wanting to write, "You can't REALLY believe that," but I guess you do.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 11:51 am
CAIRO

Egyptian Intellectual Speaks Of the Arab World's Despair

By SUSAN SACHS
AIRO, April 6 ?- Early in the morning, while most of Cairo is asleep, Ahmed Kamal Aboulmagd watches the war on television and despairs over the path taken by the United States. Even in the gloom of 4 a.m., this is not a normal emotion for Mr. Aboulmagd, a sprightly man of 72 who has lived through more than his share of revolutions, wars and international crises, yet has maintained a marvelously sunny outlook.

[+++++]

Mr. Aboulmagd is one of Egypt's best-known intellectuals, a senior aide to former President Anwar el Sadat, consultant to the United Nations and ever-curious polymath whose interests range across the fields of Islamic jurisprudence, comparative religions, literature, history and commercial law.

Like many educated Egyptians of his generation, he is a man whose views on democracy and political values were shaped by reading the United States Constitution, the Federalist papers and the writings of Thomas Jefferson and Woodrow Wilson.

For him the United States was a "dream," a paragon of liberal values to be emulated by Arabs and Muslims seeking to have a voice in the modern world.

One of his daughters lived in the United States. Mr. Aboulmagd studied there, earning a master's degree in comparative law at the University of Michigan in 1959. He served as president of the administrative tribunal of the World Bank in Washington. And he has spent more than 20 years of his life working on projects aimed at promoting dialogue between the Western, non-Muslim civilization and the Arab-Muslim world.

Yet these days, in his opinion, something has gone terribly wrong.

[+++++]

"Under the present situation, I cannot think of defending the United States," said Mr. Aboulmagd, a small man with thinning white hair who juggles a constant stream of phone calls and invitations to speak about modernizing the Arab world.

"I would not be listened to," he added. "To most people in this area, the United States is the source of evil on planet earth. And whether we like it or not, it is the Bush administration that is to blame."

When speaking of President Bush and his administration, Mr. Aboulmagd uses words like narrow-minded, pathological, obstinate and simplistic. The war on Iraq, he said bluntly, is the act of a "weak person who wants to show toughness" and, quite frankly, seems "deranged."

Such language from a man of Mr. Aboulmagd's stature is a warning sign of the deep distress that has seized the Arab elite, those who preach moderation in the face of rising Islamic radicalism and embrace liberalism over the tired slogans of Arab nationalism.

Mr. Aboulmagd has a hand in just about every institution or board that counts in Egypt, including al Azhar, the authoritative institution of Sunni Muslim learning. He is consulted on inter-cultural dialogue by the United Nations, the Arab League and the European Union. He has taught law in universities in Egypt, Sudan and Kuwait.

He has devoted decades of his life and his writings to the cause of modernizing Islamic life and promoting understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims.

[+++++]


"I find what is happening to be a serious setback in the endeavors of noble people who have realized the commonalities among different civilizations and nations," he said.

The problem, he said, is that the war on Iraq is widely seen in the Arab world as an attack on all Arabs, meant to serve the interests of Israel with no compensating outreach to aggrieved Arabs.While the 1991 Persian Gulf war, under Mr. Bush's father, was waged with the understanding that the United States would engage itself in the search for peace, he said, this war was launched without a parallel American effort to compel Israel to forge a genuine peace with the Palestinians.

[+++++]

Link to whole article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/08/international/worldspecial/08ARAB.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:10 pm
Kara, That is the same sentiment I hear from my Arab friends in Egypt and Tanzania. It's unfortunate that most Americans only see one side. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:10 pm
Obviously some troops know, how the war-propaganda-maschine works:

Quote:
...
When told of the attack[US bombs may have killed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein], the Marines I'm traveling with ?- the 3rd Battalion of the 5th Brigade of the 1st Marine Division ?- were less than impressed: they've heard too many previous reports that later turned out to be untrue. Sure, they killed him, one Marine told me. "And they got Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar too."
Added another: "And they'll probably say they found [former Teamster leader] Jimmy Hoffa's body in there as well."
On their trip north from Kuwait to the city limits of Baghdad, the Marines have learned to trust only those things they can see in front of them. They started out thinking they would be rounding up prisoners of war, since the predictions were that the Iraqi regular army in southern Iraq would surrender en masse.
Instead, they found themselves in rolling firefights, against irregular troops dressed as civilians and armed only with machine guns or rocket-propelled grenades who attacked their columns with pickups or even motorcycles.
...
http://msnbc.com/news/897275.asp?cp1=1
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:16 pm
Tuesday, 8 April

1650: UK security sources tell the BBC that they do not believe Saddam Hussein is dead.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:17 pm
(I know, I know...I should get a life.)

RULING FAMILY

U.S. Military Says It Hears Hussein Son Calling Shots

By BERNARD WEINRAUB

ITH V CORPS HEADQUARTERS, near the Kuwait border, April 7 ?- American military officials said today that they believed that Saddam Hussein's younger son, Qusay, was still alive and leading Iraq's security forces.

The American officials who monitor the conversations of the Iraqi military and listen to the command-and-control systems said that Iraqi generals speaking to Qusay over satellite phones and other communications devices generally talk about high American casualties and defeats of the allied forces in various cities.

The latest information, based on monitored conversations in the last few days, has led officers to conclude that Qusay, his father's heir apparent, is most likely alive. "If he's not, then there's a very good imposter out there," one official said.In addition, the communications reveal the same defiant optimism that Baghdad's information minister presents to listening Iraqis and foreign journalists, these officer said.

As American infantry troops encircle Baghdad and make thrusts into the city itself, top Iraqi military commanders are apparently still conveying positive messages to the younger Mr. Hussein, who was appointed leader of the security forces by his father before the war began and who is reputed to be a cunning and brutal officer.

They have also claimed, the officials said, that American forces were turned back at the international airport on the edge of Baghdad."He's being told by his cronies, by military officers, by political appointees, they have control of the airport," said one American officer who has listened to the transmissions. "They say, `We're ready, we're fighting, we're moving to attack.' He's being told lies."

[++++]

Intelligence officers said the Saddam Hussein government had so intimidated and brutalized its military leadership that officers might be fearful of passing on accurate information that could infuriate the Iraqi leader, if he is still alive, or his son.The flow of inaccurate information from Iraqi officials to the public has also grown in recent days.

Today, for example, Iraq's information minister, Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf, held a news conference in Baghdad in which he said that "Baghdad is safe," that there were no American troops in the city and that the Americans were lying when they said Baghdad was under siege.Mr. Sahhaf also said American soldiers were committing suicide and were "sick in their minds." He said the sound of gunfire in Baghdad came from the killing of Americans troops.

Qusay, who is 36, is believed to be the closest family member in Saddam's inner circle."Qusay has emerged as the star of the family," wrote Kenneth M. Pollack, a Middle East expert at the Brookings Institution, in "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq." "Quiet, dependable and ruthless, he heads the Special Security Organization, which has become Iraq's pre-eminent internal security organization, with far greater responsibilities than Saddam had previously allowed any other security agency to possess."

[+++++]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/08/international/worldspecial/08SON.html
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:23 pm
If I had been told before the war that US forces would deliberately target and kill journalists, I would not have believed it.

But now I am not so sure.

I don't believe that tank commander didn't recognise the Palestine Hotel
I don't believe he came under RPG or sniper attack from the foyer
I don't believe he was unaware it was full of journalists and crew
I don't believe he would have fired at such a target without getting explict authorisation if not a direct order from way up the command structure.

As I said a few minutes after it happened, it was no accident. And no Americans were killed or injured.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:28 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if he had come under attack - iraqi untis using the hotel as a sheild. I am still highly suspiscious.

US military has surrounded the tv station in baghdad....
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:30 pm
1632: A stray rocket, apparently fired in the war in neighbouring Iraq, killed one person in south-western Iran, the third such case since war began, reports said.

from the BBC - At a glance.

Grrrr....
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:53 pm
frolic, remember this?


Gelisgesti wrote:
What will be said when the 'embeded' press corp get left at the gates of the city because is too 'dangerous' for them to proceed?


Some people here call me "The Al-Jazeera man". But you have to admit those journalists got a lot of nerve. They go to places and cities where no other journalists dare to go. They give us a different view on this conflict.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:56 pm
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=395123

This is the beginning of the article:

Robert Fisk: It seemed as if Baghdad would fall within hours. But the day was characterised by crazed normality, high farce and death

08 April 2003

It started with a series of massive vibrations, a great "stomping" sound that shook my room. "Stomp, stomp, stomp," it went. I lay in bed trying to fathom the cause. It was like the moment in Jurassic Park when the tourists first hear footfalls of the dinosaur, an ever increasing, ever more frightening thunder of a regular, monstrous heartbeat.

From my window on the east bank of the Tigris, I saw an Iraqi anti-aircraft gun firing from the roof of a building half a mile away, shooting across the river at something. "Stomp, stomp," it went again, the sound so enormous it set off alarms in cars along the bank.

And it was only when I stood on the road at dawn that I knew what had happened. Not since the war in 1991 had I heard the sound of American artillery. And there, only a few hundred metres away on the far bank of the Tigris, I saw them. At first they looked like tiny, armoured centipedes, stopping and starting, dappled brown and grey, weird little creatures that had come to inspect an alien land and search for water.



Read the whole thing. Tough-minded but sad, like most of his stuff.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 12:56 pm
Gelisgesti, I can't wait until the books start coming out!
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 01:11 pm
Chris Hedges, who has just written an increasingly famous and quoted book on being an "embedded" in the first Gulf War, writes the following:

Quote:
War itself is venal, dirty, confusing and perhaps the most potent narcotic invented by humankind. Modern industrial warfare means that most of those who are killed never see their attackers. There is nothing glorious or gallant about it. If we saw what wounds did to bodies, how killing is far more like butchering an animal than the clean and neat Hollywood deaths on the screen, it would turn our stomachs. If we saw how war turns young people into intoxicated killers, how it gives soldiers a license to destroy not only things but other human beings, and if we saw the perverse thrill such destruction brings, we would be horrified and frightened. If we understood that combat is often a constant battle with a consuming fear we have perhaps never known, a battle that we often lose, we would find the abstract words of war--glory, honor and patriotism--not only hollow but obscene. If we saw the deep psychological scars of slaughter, the way it maims and stunts those who participate in war for the rest of their lives, we would keep our children away. Indeed, it would be hard to wage war...... The embedding of several hundred journalists in military units does not diminish the lie. These journalists do not have access to their own transportation. They depend on the military for everything, from food to a place to sleep. They look to the soldiers around them for protection. When they feel the fear of hostile fire, they identify and seek to protect those who protect them. They become part of the team. It is a natural reaction. I have felt it...... I doubt the journalists filing the hollow reports from Iraq, in which there are images but rarely any content, are aware of how they are being manipulated. They, like everyone else, believe. But when they look back they will find that war is always about betrayal. It is about betrayal of the young by the old, of soldiers by politicians and of idealists by the cynical men who wield power, the ones who rarely pay the cost of war. We pay that cost. And we will pay it again.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030421&c=2&s=hedges
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 01:15 pm
Amen!
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 01:19 pm
I can understand being opposed to this war, but I find this notion of being opposed to ever taking military action to be one rooted in an absence of rational thought.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 01:49 pm
Tartarin what an amazing piece of writing. Thanks for posting.

[quote]I can understand being opposed to this war, but I find this notion of being opposed to ever taking military action to be one rooted in an absence of rational thought.[/quote]

tres, can't you imagine military action becoming so terrifyingly awful and end-of-the-world like -- surely we are not far from that now -- that no rational person would consider it even as a last solution?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2003 01:52 pm
Kara, it requires a civilization change to be able to approach your scenario. As a matter of fact, for us to reach the next civilized level, war has to become barbaric and only spoken of in the past tense! Easy for some of us, but currently, we have regressed
<sigh>
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » The US, UN & Iraq II
  3. » Page 164
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 03/11/2026 at 04:09:47