0
   

The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:29 pm
snood wrote:
"Nowhere in that statement will you find any comment regarding Fox's general bias or lack thereof. The statement reads exactly, and only, as it reads. Calling it "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is evidence only of a bias toward the facts."

Exactly - I never said your statement let on either way - hence my question. So, do you think Fox is biased toward the right or not? Call it curiosity.

I think their commentary and editorial stance leans toward the conservative side, sure. I think they make a decent effort at trying to present both sides of the issues and reporting the news accurately.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:31 pm
Do you think Fox reports responsibly, Tres?
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:31 pm
You folks listening to those news sources which waste all of their time searching in vain for a US debacle in this war, are in full blown denial.

The two best Iraq divisions (especially the Medina which is a full armored ----whoops--WAS---a full armored division) have been reported to be reduced to insignificance.

Why didn't Saddam show up for his news conference?
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:35 pm
Tres

Look out ----- ambush!
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:39 pm
nimh, there are any number of posts on this thread and articles in periodicals journals which have predicted the most dire of calamities, none of which have transpired. There are no thousands of civilian casualties. The dams have not been breached. The oilfields have not been torched The Iraqi resistance has been innefective at best, and continues to decline. The advance proceeds essentially at the will of Tommy Franks. The populace of Iraq appears to see, accept, and appreciate that the attack is on The Regime, not The People. No Iraqi attack has been executed successfuly against any third country. No worldwide explosion of terrorist activity has occurred. There are no bodies to fill the projected bodybags that were predicted to be shipped back to the US on a daily basis. US planes are not falling to enemy fire. There has been no massive domestic repudiation of the attack, but rather support here for the enterprise grows, at leastr according to the polls which have been released. The Arab Street has remained relatively calm. The thousands of volunteer suicide bombers seem to exist only in press releases. The flood of third country Islamist civilian combatants has not been any more evidenced than have the dreaded suicide bombers. I would consider that predictions and lamentations of such are thus shown in specific to have been hyperbole and hysteria.
Among the few remaining unknowns are the WMD question, and the vigor and efficacy of Baghdad's defense. I suspect both concerns will be consistent with the established trend.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:40 pm
Aja,

Steve wrote in re. your query as to whether this site is mostly Pro or Anti-war:
Quote:
Mostly anti.

There are one or two "pro" (if anyone can be said to be in favour of war), but their forces are depleted somewhat right now.


It certainly seems that the anti-war crowd predominates. They are loud and often outrageous in their claims and doomsday predictions.

Those who support the necessity for this conflict are not so vocal. There are half a dozen, or so of us who have never lost faith in our troops. We are confident that the war is being managed professionally and in a manner that keeps casualties to a minimum. It really isn't necessary for us to challenge those who would rather believe enemy propaganda, because the actual battle for Iraq speaks far better than we possibly could. What is the picture emerging from chaos of war? It is that Saddam did secretly retain prohibited missiles, and prepared his troops for operation in a chemical/biological environment. It is that Saddam adopted a strategy that is in clear violation of international law and the Rules of War. The Ba'ath Regime is again revealed as a brutal and despotic organization with absolutely no concern for civilian life, or for the religion they now claim to defend. The best of the Iraqi military forces have shown, so far, that they are incapable of standing against coalition forces. The irregular, and criminal, tactics used by Saddam loyalists has been generally ineffective, though they have greatly retarded the willingness of the average Iraqi to rise against their Masters. The coalition air strikes have pounded and destroyed at will the enemy's CCC+I capabilities in the heart of a modern city with remarkably few civilian casualties. Today we hear that the Baghdad and Medina Divisions have lost their combat effectiveness, and that our troops approach the outskirts of Baghdad. This is a time of maximum risk that Saddam will utilize chemical/biological weapons, and we watch with interest to see what the short-term outcome will be.

I've said several times that this would be a short war with minimal casualties. Every indication is that those predictions were correct, but I do not gloat. Every death and every wounded person is in some measure a loss and failure. Great suffering always accompanies combat, and this war is no different in that respect from those waged a thousand years ago. There will be a period following the victory where chaos will still reign, but that period will also I think be relatively brief. Our conduct of this war has not significantly destroyed the infrastructure of the nation, and the civilian population should be able to resume their normal lives rather quickly. The de-nazification of the country will be a challenge, but I think we are capable of it.

Much of the anti-war rhetoric in this country, it seems to me, comes from the highly polarized nature of American partisan politics. Many of the most vocal anti-war postings here are by folks who believe that the President of the United States won the White House unfairly, that he is at the same time both barely an idiot and a clever schemer at the heart of a monstrous conspiracy to subvert the Constitution, and that any on supporting the administration is dreaming of world conquest. It has been said here that Bush is the worst despot since before Ghengis Khan, and that he is the anti-Christ. Others have claimed that the President is conducting a religious war to impose fundamental Christianity on the whole world. One poster said that they would rather lose 1000 American lives in removing the President of the United States from office than a similar number of American lives lost in Iraq. They all claim to be patriotic Americans.

The second group of anti-war people are not U.S. citizens, and some of them are even more virulent in their anti-American statements. Frolic, who appears to be either French or Belgian, is a mouthpiece for Al-Jazeera. There are several living in London and Canada who are quite outspoken in their beliefs that this conflict is morally, legally, and ethically wrong. Many also have predicted a war lasting years, huge casualties among the troops, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) civilian casualties, and destabilization of the world.

Both American and foreign anti-war forces cling desperately to any negative report about the war, and deny every positive report coming from the field, coalition command, or from coalition governments. They seem to prefer bad news to the good news that this war is going extremely well and the future appears bright.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:48 pm
Here are a few excerpts from an article in today's NYT that may be showing us a little light at the end of this "Hearts and Minds" tunnel.

" NAJAF, Iraq, April 2 — Hundreds of American troops marched into town at midday today and were greeted by its residents...

...People rushed to greet them today, crying out repeatedly, "Thank you, this is beautiful!"
Two questions dominated a crowd that gathered outside a former ammunition center for the Baath Party. "Will you stay?" asked Kase, a civil engineer who would not give his last hame. Another man, Heider, said, "Can you tell me what time Saddam is finished?"...

...Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus ventured a few blocks into the town on Tuesday and was greeted by residents with cheers, smiles and tips on where to find armed agents of Saddam Hussein...

...It appeared from the reception on Tuesday and today that with the forces loyal to Mr. Hussein removed or defeated, the local population felt free to express its sentiments... "

Full Article at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/worldspecial/02CND-AIRB.html


I, along with others in this thread, have suspected that such feelings of the Iraqi people have lain just below the surface. Their reason for not demonstrating these feelings is manifest in the last excerpt.
The case of Kadhim al-Waeli intrigues me. Is any one familiar with the free Iraqi forces attached to a civil affairs unit of the United States Army? Are these just interpreters or do they perform more functions for the coalition?

JM
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 12:54 pm
"...Those who support the necessity for this conflict are not so vocal. There are half a dozen, or so of us who have never lost faith in our troops...."

There are two things I object to there, Asherman:

1) "The necessity for this conflict." That is precisely what many antiwar folks were never convinced of. No one -- even many in the administration, quoted in the New Yorker and elsewhere, agree there was no proven "necessity for this conflict."

2) "...have never lost faith in our troops..." That's an odd claim, I think. It implies that other than the "half a dozen or so," we've lost faith in our troops. I doubt that's true.

As I go on through your post, I see several misquotes, challenged and put to rest in the past, have been resuscitated.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:01 pm
Tartan,

Do you want to retract your statements about your preference that 1000 American lives be lost if dislodging the President, than 1000 American lives lost in Iraq? That remains one of the most outrageous remarks I've seen here, and is close to inciting overthrow of the government. Just say you're sorry, and mis-spoke.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:04 pm
No, I don't Asherman.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:06 pm
Tartan,

So you stand by your near treasonous words? Here again are your exact words, and the dates you said them:

Tartan said:

(18MAR) "I'd like to say that I'm hoping that this US invasion of a sovereign nation will be a god-awful flop and mess."

(19MAR) "my reason dictates that mush Bush fail in this attack, not fail so that Iraqi citizens are slaughtered or troops put at any more risk than necessary (OBVIOUSLY) but fail so that the US finally wakes up to this horrific, lethal agitprop the administration has indulged itself in. Bush is the murderer guys"

(19MAE) "If I had to sacrifice 1000 American soldiers and I were given a choice between sacrificing them to "prove a point" by invading Iraq, or sacrificing them to remove from power the very dangerous Bush administration (far more dangerous to the world than that of Saddam Hussein), I'd sacrifice American lives for the protection of their own people and the rest of the world against our own administration."
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:09 pm
Asherman -- You're going to have to learn to live with outrage. Many of us live with it... I mean every word you have quoted above. They also come from outrage!
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:17 pm
Tartarin wrote:
You're going to have to learn to live with outrage.
Two edged sword, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:34 pm
Is it more like a rapier timber - three edged, which often times is pointed both at the foe and back at ones own self. We do exist in a time I wish was over! Peace to all! Smile
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:40 pm
Still just a product of the rumor mill, but this bears watching;

An anonymous source told UPI on April 2 that the al Qaeda network had captured five coalition troops in Iraq -- four Americans and one British soldier. The kidnapping reportedly took place March 29 in the Az Zubayr region of southern Iraq, near the border with Kuwait. The source said a videotape of the captured soldiers would be released soon, and al Qaeda would make an offer to swap them for individuals detained at Guantanamo Bay.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:47 pm
Trade? We have had some success in getting our own back so I wouldn' bet on it.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:50 pm
Exactly Timber! I get the sense that many of us here read and think about things from a point of view we find startling or outrageous. The First Amendment is not always easy to live with. For those of us who see war as immoral in itself, the current situation is a 24/7 outrage. It's very hard for many who feel that way to read and try to absorb calm descriptions of preparations for and prosecution of battle.

It's no less hard, clearly, for those who have participated in battle, to feel condemned by our point of view. I've done my best, as others have, to separate the citizen soldier from the leadership's aggression. It was deeply unfair to blame those guys who returned from Vietnam for a huge moral and political error on the part of leadership. But that would never keep me from condemning that leadership or the leadership which has created the current "outrageous" invasion.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:50 pm
Captured by Al Queda in southern Iraq----but there is no link with Al Queda in Iraq----or is there?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:51 pm
Well, whether there is anything there or not is debateable. The item is not getting picked up by other services at the moment. That could of course change, but often these things just go away ... the one thing more common than bullets in war is rumor.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2003 01:51 pm
Different wrinkle timber, will be looking for related articles. Thanks for the heads up!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » The US, UN & Iraq II
  3. » Page 131
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 10/06/2024 at 09:20:19