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German conservative Ratzinger is new Pope Benedict XVI

 
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 06:31 am
Yep, now about the future....
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 06:43 am
I think if the Catholic church doesn't get out of the 14th century and enter the 21st Century they will go the way of the dinosaurs. They already don't have enough priests to support the available parishs and entry into the priesthood is at an all time low. If all you can do is attract pedophiles, it's time to change the rules.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 06:55 am
goodfielder wrote:
Could be "clowning is a weapon of mass distraction". Dunno. I need to brush up on my Latin.


Does this mean y'all are going to be searching the countryside for me? If so, I think I'll go bury myself in the sand somewhere so you can't find me. Laughing
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 06:59 am
Green Witch- I would be very suprised if this new Pope will be an innovator. I had been reading where the Catholic church was interested in making inroads in third world countries. I think that was why there was speculation that the Cardinals might choose a black Pope.

If Benedict does not take a courageous stand against the AIDS epidemic in Africa by promoting condom use, he might find himself with far less souls to "save".
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 07:10 am
CoastalRat wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
Could be "clowning is a weapon of mass distraction". Dunno. I need to brush up on my Latin.


Does this mean y'all are going to be searching the countryside for me? If so, I think I'll go bury myself in the sand somewhere so you can't find me. Laughing


No need CR - I'm sure we won't find you because you really don't exist Very Happy

Oh got oil?
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 07:52 am
Ah, but how do you know I don't exist? I might be hiding quite well. You can hide a lot of clowns on the average beach here in SC. I may even have crossed the border into NC and be hiding in their sands. And when you least expect it.....BOOM!!....there I am, making you laugh again.

See, I am a sneaky WMD. Smile
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NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 08:08 am
kelticwizard wrote:
What's the UCC?


A "Liberal Protestant" denomination. They had an ad that a lot of "Liberal" TV stations wouldn't show.

I'm kinda "Church Shopping" a bit and I went to a service there last sunday.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 08:20 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Ah, but how do you know I don't exist? I might be hiding quite well. You can hide a lot of clowns on the average beach here in SC. I may even have crossed the border into NC and be hiding in their sands. And when you least expect it.....BOOM!!....there I am, making you laugh again.

See, I am a sneaky WMD. Smile


That's the problem with existentialism, you think you've got it by the tail and - *boom* - it blows your hand off (metaphorically speaking) Very Happy
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 08:20 am
TRAUNSTEIN, Germany A man of deep personal faith who choked back tears as he delivered the homily at Pope John Paul II's funeral, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger also has alienated some Roman Catholics with his zeal in enforcing church orthodoxy..
And on those issues, the new Pope Benedict XVI is immovable..
Even as the cardinals who elected him prayed before the conclave, Ratzinger urged them to cling to church tradition and warned about the dangers of abandoning it..
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism," he said Monday. "Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and 'swept along by every wind of teaching,' looks like the only attitude acceptable to today's standards..
"We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one's own ego and one's own desires," he warned..
They were words that would go over well in the conservative Alpine foothills of Bavaria where Ratzinger grew up and remains a favorite son. Now, at 78, he has become the 265th pope of the Roman Catholic Church and the first Germanic pope since monarchs imposed four men from that region in a row in the 11th century..
"Only someone who knows tradition is able to shape the future," said the Reverend Thomas Frauenlob, who heads the seminary in Traunstein where Ratzinger studied and regularly returns to visit..
But opinion about him remains divided in Germany, a sharp contrast to John Paul, who was revered in his native Poland. .
A poll for Der Spiegel newsweekly said Germans opposed to Ratzinger becoming pope outnumbered supporters 36 percent to 29 percent, with 17 percent having no preference. The poll of 1,000 people, taken April 5-7, gave no margin of error..
Many blame Ratzinger for decrees from Rome barring Catholic priests from counseling pregnant teens and blocking German Catholics from sharing communion with their Lutheran brethren at a joint gathering in 2003..
Ratzinger has clashed with prominent theologians at home, most notably the liberal Hans Küng, who helped him get a teaching post at the University of Tübingen in the 1960s. The cardinal later publicly criticized Küng, whose license to teach theology was revoked by the Vatican in 1979..
He has also sparred openly in articles with a fellow German, Cardinal Walter Kasper, a moderate who has urged less centralized church governance and was considered a dark horse papal candidate..
"He has hurt many people and far overstepped his boundaries in Germany," said Christian Wiesner, spokesman for the pro-reform Wir Sind Kirche, or We Are Church, movement..
Ratzinger may have softened his image - at least among his colleagues - with the delivery of the homily at John Paul II's funeral. Choking back tears, the cardinal said that "we can be sure our beloved pope is standing today at the window of the father's house, that he sees us and blesses us.".
In his autobiography, Ratzinger said he sensed he was out of step with his fellow Germans as early as the 1960s, when he was a young assistant at the Second Vatican Council in Rome..
Returning to Germany between sessions, "I found the mood in the church and among theologians to be agitated," he wrote. "More and more there was the impression that nothing stood fast in the church, that everything was up for revision.".
Ratzinger left Tübingen during student protests in the late 1960s and moved to the more conservative University of Regensburg in his home state of Bavaria..
Catholics and Protestants each account for about 34 percent of the German population, but Bavaria is one of the more heavily Catholic areas..
"What Wadowice was for John Paul, Bavaria is for Ratzinger," said Frauenlob, referring to John Paul II's hometown in southern Poland. "He has very deep roots here, it's his home.".
The cardinal was born in Marktl Am Inn, but his father, a police officer, moved frequently and the family left when he was 2..
He and his older brother, Georg - former director of the renowned Regensburger Domspatzen boys choir - return annually to the peaceful halls of St. Michael's Seminary to stay in the elegant but sparsely furnished bishop's apartment next to the church..
An accomplished pianist who loves Mozart, Ratzinger enjoys playing the grand piano in the seminary's main hall, and walking through central Traunstein greeting people, Frauenlob said..
Traunstein was also where Ratzinger went through the harrowing years of Nazi rule and World War II..
In his memoirs, Ratzinger wrote that he was enrolled in the Nazi youth movement against his will when he was 14 in 1941, when membership was compulsory. He said he was soon let out because of his studies for the priesthood..
Two years later he was drafted into a Nazi anti-aircraft unit as a helper, a common task for teenage boys too young to be soldiers..
A year later he was released, only to be sent to the Austrian-Hungarian border to construct tank barriers..
He deserted the Germany Army in May 1945 and returned to Traunstein - a risky move, since deserters were shot on the spot if caught, or publicly hanged as examples to others..
When he arrived home, U.S. soldiers took him prisoner and held him in a POW camp for several weeks. Upon his release, he re-entered the seminary..
Ratzinger was ordained, along with his brother, in 1951. He then spent several years teaching theology. In 1977, he was appointed bishop of Munich and elevated to cardinal three months later by Pope Paul VI..
John Paul II named him leader of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1981, where he was responsible for enforcing Catholic orthodoxy and was one of the key men in the drive to shore up the faith of the world's Roman Catholics..
Ratzinger speaks several languages, among them Italian and English, as well as his native language, German..
Frauenlob calls him a subtle thinker with a deep understanding of Catholic tradition and a personal touch he is not often given credit for..
He cites the example of the seminary's 2003 confirmation service where no bishop was available. Ratzinger swiftly agreed to come, confirming the 14 boys, then taking time to speak personally to each one after the ceremony..
"I find it hurtful to see him described as a hard-liner," Frauenlob said. "People are too quick to say that. It's not an accurate reflection of his personality.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 08:28 am
Good. It's meant to be. Take that as you wish. For mine it's a clash of the
sumptuous and well upholstered luxury of the Roman Catholic church with the teachings of its founders. The clever theology may well well founder on the rock of truth.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 08:50 am
I guess that's the gap that can't be bridged--the one between realtivism and theological absolutism aka Catholic orthodoxy and tradition.
Calling the movements of the 21st century a relativist dictatorship is to outright deny the evolution of thought...which, to me, is even more outrageous than their denial of the possibility of the evolution of man.
Evolution of thought is not limited by the lack of evidence that the evolution of man is. It's just a further demonstration of how the organization shuts off all senses and ties to reality and blindly follows outdated ideology.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 09:08 am
candidone1

Quote:
It's just a further demonstration of how the organization shuts off all senses and ties to reality and blindly follows outdated ideology.


Is that not the same for fundamental religionists of all stripes and religions? It would seem to me at least he is the wrong man for the times.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 09:41 am
au1929 wrote:

Quote:
It's just a further demonstration of how the organization shuts off all senses and ties to reality and blindly follows outdated ideology.


Is that not the same for fundamental religionists of all stripes and religions? It would seem to me at least he is the wrong man for the times.


Yup.
And with that being said, I think anyone who fits the bill as a fundamental religionist is the wrong man/woman for the times, regardless of their place in society.
Religiosity and being progressive in thought should not be contradictory positions. There are plenty of religions who have embraced the relativist dictatorship's revolution and kept the spirit of religion alive in those who have rejected or abandoned outdated religious philosophies.
The matter of maintaining the thraditional monopoly over Christianity by the Catholic Church will come into question during this Papacy, IMO.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 11:00 am
Green Witch wrote:
I think if the Catholic church doesn't get out of the 14th century and enter the 21st Century they will go the way of the dinosaurs. They already don't have enough priests to support the available parishs and entry into the priesthood is at an all time low. If all you can do is attract pedophiles, it's time to change the rules.


I think the church—catholic and reformist—never got over Gallileo. Oh, they admitted finally that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but they kept the old cosmology with god and heaven out there, etc., and they are irretrievably losing credence in the educated world. I hear that the church has no trouble getting priests in the 3rd world though.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 11:11 am
The pope is actually a political leader and not a spiritual leader or authority, an absurb concept in its own right, for how can there be an authority on the spiritual?
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 11:13 am
candidone1 wrote:
au1929 wrote:

Quote:
It's just a further demonstration of how the organization shuts off all senses and ties to reality and blindly follows outdated ideology.


Is that not the same for fundamental religionists of all stripes and religions? It would seem to me at least he is the wrong man for the times.


Yup.
And with that being said, I think anyone who fits the bill as a fundamental religionist is the wrong man/woman for the times, regardless of their place in society.
Religiosity and being progressive in thought should not be contradictory positions. There are plenty of religions who have embraced the relativist dictatorship's revolution and kept the spirit of religion alive in those who have rejected or abandoned outdated religious philosophies.
The matter of maintaining the thraditional monopoly over Christianity by the Catholic Church will come into question during this Papacy, IMO.


Disagree.

A conservative position by this Pope will surely rattle the feathers of the liberal elitist minority. Yet, those who appreciate the Catholic Churches convervative position will be happy to rejoin the church under Pope Benedicts direction.

There are many other options for those who do not favor the Roman Catholic position and are free to seek that elsewhere.

Why should the so called progressive minority force this Pope tro change his opinion? The American Catholic is not a majority voice in the church and has little or no input as to it's direction, as it should be.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 02:59 pm
Apr 20, 3:44 PM EDT
New Pope's Ex-Students Express Skepticism

By MATT MOORE
Associated Press Writer

TUEBINGEN, Germany (AP) -- In the cafeteria at Tuebingen University's theology department, students swapping lecture notes on a rainy Wednesday weren't preoccupied by their looming exams.

Instead, they were concerned about where their school's most famous former professor would take the Roman Catholic Church as Pope Benedict XVI. And they didn't exude optimism.

"It's going to be interesting to see what he does," said Thomas Burchard, a 20-year-old Protestant studying for the ministry. "He's very conservative and, like the Catholic Church, he goes against what the Bible says."

Fellow student Simon Reinitz, clad in black, his hair long and a stud piercing his left eyebrow, declared that Ratzinger was a caretaker pope, nothing more.

"Why not an African pope? Why not a Latin American pope? The church will make changes," Reinitz said. "This is just someone to hold over the conservatives."

Students and faculty at Tuebingen remain skeptical of Ratzinger, who left in 1969 partly out of disenchantment with the Marxist enthusiasm then sweeping the campus. The university remains the outstanding center of liberal theological study in Germany, and trains both Roman Catholics and Protestants.

They are proud that a former professor has gone to such great heights, but criticize his actions as the Vatican's chief enforcer of doctrinal orthodoxy. Those include decrees that many blame for barring priests from counseling pregnant teens about options including abortion and blocking German Catholics from sharing Communion with Lutherans.

Even the pontiff's former assistant, Bernd Jochen Hilberath, responded cautiously to his former teacher's elevation. Hilberath, who holds the same chair that Ratzinger once held, said the world's Catholics and other Christians are on edge, waiting to see if the papacy will change him.
"Joseph Ratzinger is a multidimensional person. He's not one-sided, but he has potential, it depends on his circle of advisers," Hilberath said.

While critics contend that the choice of the 78-year-old Ratzinger may signal a caretaker papacy, Hilberath said it is possible the German pontiff may surprise them as he tackles the tough issues of abortion, the church's ban on contraception, the sex abuse scandals and the ordination of women.

"He's informed about the issues, the facts, the history," he said, careful to note that only the pontiff himself knows what he is thinking. "We hope that the pope is a pope who regards the perspectives of the Gospels, but is also helpful to people in contemporary life."

Ratzinger had a few things to say about Tuebingen as well in his memoirs. He departed after left-wing student upheavals rocked the campus, and his classes were at one point interrupted by sit-ins.

"The Marxist revolution ignited the entire university, it shook its foundations," he wrote in his memoirs. "Hope remained, but into the place of God stepped the party and with it a totalitarianism of atheist worship, which is ready to sacrifice all of humanity to its false god."

Hoping to escape the endless disruption and confrontation, and wanting to be closer to his brother, Georg, Ratzinger left Tuebingen for the University of Regensburg in his native Bavaria.

In a statement Tuesday, Tuebingen's most famous scholar, the controversial Swiss theologian Hans Kueng, called Ratzinger's election "an enormous disappointment for all those who hoped for a reformist and pastoral pope."

Kueng, who has lost his official license to teach Catholic theology but continues to teach anyway, was the one who urged the theology department to hire Ratzinger, who later criticized his writings.

He has said that at the time he perceived Ratzinger as more moderate than he was during his years in the Vatican. Several of Ratzinger's students at Regensburg have described him as open to other people's ideas and eager for wide-ranging discussion.

That has inspired hope that Pope Benedict may be different from Cardinal Ratzinger.

"But we must wait and see, for experience shows that the papacy in the Catholic Church today is such a challenge that it can change anyone," Kueng wrote. "Let us therefore give him a chance: as with a president of the USA we should allow a pope 100 days to learn."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 03:08 pm
coluber2001 wrote:
The pope is actually a political leader and not a spiritual leader or authority, an absurb concept in its own right, for how can there be an authority on the spiritual?


Who says so?

Quote:
Pope - Latin papa, from Greek pappas, "father"), an ecclesiastical title expressing affectionate respect, formerly given, especially from the 3rd to the 5th century, to any bishop and sometimes to simple priests. The title is still used in the East for the Orthodox patriarch of Alexandria and for Orthodox priests, but, since about the 9th century, it has been reserved in the West exclusively for the bishop of Rome.
[...]
The Annuario Pontificio (official directory of the Holy See) describes the office of the pope by the following titles: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Western Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Province of Rome, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City. The title pope or papa (abbreviated PP.) is officially used only as a less solemn style.

Doctrinally, in Catholic churches, the pope is regarded as the successor of St. Peter, who was head of the Apostles. The pope, as bishop of Rome, thus is seen to have full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal church in matters of faith and morals, as well as in church discipline and government.
[...]
source: Encyclopædia Britannica.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 03:10 pm
Besides I suggest, some here should re-read a bit of German history ( e.g. re Hitler Jugend and Nazi period).
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 05:55 pm
Benedict XVI will test religion's 'red-blue' divide

http://csmonitor.com/2005/0421/p01s03-woeu.html

A step back in time. He sounds like someone who would try to return to the middle ages when the Catholic Church ruled Europe.
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