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Catholic Church Now Accepts Gays

 
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 12:53 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Quote:
My quibble is not with the bible, which is, after all, simply a collection of badly written, contradictory folk tales, which purports to reveal the word of god.


Can you prove they this, and only this? Give me some contradictory lines, and we'll see...


II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 02:44 am
Here are a couple dozen Biblical contradictions (all cites refer to the text of the Revised Standard Edition):

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19

Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states Terah lived 205 years.

Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14

Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16

The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6

The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14

David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19

Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12
Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9

Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14

David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4

David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1


David buys the land for the altar from Ornan for 600 shekels of gold - 1 Chron 21:24-25
David buys the land for the altar from Araunah for 50 shekels - 2 Sam 24:24

Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25
Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26

The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15
The Temple pillars were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15

The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19


The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18

The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18

Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7
Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4


If you'd like, I can come up with literally hundreds more. And if we consider different translations/editions of the Bible, the fun really starts to mount. Wanna see?
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 06:15 am
Quote:
perhaps this is an example of a place were thunder might feel "comfortable ... at home ... while praising god".


You need to see my church, it is down-town Columbus, and it is over a hundred years old, practically falling apart. The building doesn't matter, we have homeless people sneaking in our church during the service and stealing the coffee money. They are welcome to come, and we often help them out, we have a pantry with canned food and our priest gives out money nearly every week. The part of town is so bad that someone stole my brother's coat during the service from the coat rack....yet when I am worshiping God, I couldn't feel more at home.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 05:13 pm
well, that's sounds right christian to me, thunder runner ! i salute you !

you seem to agree that it's not the ornaments that are important but the spirit. hbg
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 06:13 am
Quote:
od creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19

Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states Terah lived 205 years.

Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14

Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16

The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6

The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14

David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19

Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12
Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9

Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14

David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4

David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1


David buys the land for the altar from Ornan for 600 shekels of gold - 1 Chron 21:24-25
David buys the land for the altar from Araunah for 50 shekels - 2 Sam 24:24

Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25
Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26

The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15
The Temple pillars were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15

The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19


The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18

The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18

Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7
Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4

If you'd like, I can come up with literally hundreds more. And if we consider different translations/editions of the Bible, the fun really starts to mount. Wanna see?


I salute you timberlandko, on finding hundreds of complimentary statements. Good job.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 09:23 am
Some folks simply DON"T know any better. Whether they can't or won't recognize absurdity is moot. The grasp of superstion is pernicious.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 09:24 am
What don't you get about complimentary statements?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 09:30 am
Show them to be complimentary.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 09:40 am
Many are the result of different points of view. Or, they are different altogether. Some you pulled have no relevance to the other. Wether you made this list, or you just pulled it off a site, it appears this person only went through, found one sentence, pulled it out of context, and decided that they could make themcontradict.
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:56 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Many are the result of different points of view. Or, they are different altogether. Some you pulled have no relevance to the other. Wether you made this list, or you just pulled it off a site, it appears this person only went through, found one sentence, pulled it out of context, and decided that they could make themcontradict.


II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

This is a fairly straight forward statement. I don't see how I could have pulled it out of context nor could their be errancy due to point of view. They (as they appear in the text) are contradictory to one another. Now you may tell me how you reinterpret what was said so that it is no longer contradictory.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:59 am
I don't think there is any error in interpretation, I don't know the history of Ahaziah, so I can't explain this one. If someone else knows it better, and they want to help, that would be nice. Otherwise I'll try to find out myself.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:42 am
Reconcile the contradictory nativity narratives found in the Gospels.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 12:15 pm
Which would be....?
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 05:20 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
I don't think there is any error in interpretation, I don't know the history of Ahaziah, so I can't explain this one. If someone else knows it better, and they want to help, that would be nice. Otherwise I'll try to find out myself.


I appreciate your honesty. Although the two lines are a clear example of contradiction, Ahaziah is of little consequence to us. Perhaps a much more fundamental example can be used.

Would you be able to tell me what were the last words Jesus uttered on the cross before he died?

Let's think about that for a second. This is a fairly important event. These are the last words ever uttered by the son of God during his triumphant yet torturous ending. This is the last words the son of God will leave his "sheep" before returning to the kingdom of heaven. Even criminals being put to death are asked, "Do you have any last words?" So I pose the same question to you, thunder_runner32 or any other who denies contradiction in the bible, what were Jesus' last words on the cross?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 10:42 am
thunder_runner32, in reference to my mention of inconsistencies within the nativity narrative as set forth in the Gospels, wrote:
Which would be....?


Matthew, in tracing Jesus' lineage back to King David, numbers 28 generations, while Luke makes the count 41. Matthew identifies Joseph's father, Jesus' grandfather, as a man named Jacob, Luke names the man Heli. While Matthew and Mark relate Jesus was born during Herod's reign, Herod 's death is known to have occurred in 4 BC. Luke goes to some effort to establish the birth as taking place during a census ordered by Augustus, at the time Quirinius was governor of Syria; first, Quirinius did not become governor of Syria untill 6 AD, second, no independent record of any such census exists.

The census subnarrative itself has other problems. As well documented by historic record, Roman census practice was to register persons at the town nearest their current place of dwelling or at the chief town of the local administrative district. No record of any Roman census ever conducted in the manner described in the Gospels exists; in fact, the disruption and mass movement of the civil population intimated would have been quite contrary to Roman prudence and sense of order.

Matthew has Joseph and Mary residents of Bethlehem, in Judea, while in Luke the couple are said to be residents of Nazareth, in Galilee. Matthew says Jesus was born in a house in Bethlehem, one illuminated by a peculiar star nowhere else mentioned in the annals of the times (not even in Luke), a star which guided The Magi to the nativity scene. Luke places the birth in a manger, or stable, and makes no mention of star or Magi, saying the birth was attended by shepherds who hade been told of the event by an angel. There is no corroborative secular account of the visit of the Magi - either to the nativity scene or to Herod. That Herod's chroniclers might overlook such a momentous embassy is improbable to the point of disbelief.

Matthew recount's the family fleeing to Egypt to avoid Herod's massacre of firstborn, which, in common with the census, is recorded in no independent secular source, nor is it mentioned in Luke, which has the family returning peacefully to Nazareth. Matthew has the family spending several years in Egypt, whereas Luke says Joseph and Mary presented Jesus at the temple in Jerusalem when he was 40 days old, and furthermore, Luke goes on to mention the family returned to the temple every year at Passover - impossible if the family were, as per Matthew, for several years refugees in Egypt.

The foregoing is by no means an exhaustive list of discrepancies, many more disagreements between the Gospel accounts exists, and in many other respects the Gospel accounts are at odds with the voluminously recorded secular contemporary accounts and later secular accounts of the history of the times, but serves well enough as a representative sample to illustrate that numerous discrepancies exist.

Now, any one of these disagreements taken alone amounts to no more than an oddity. Taken together, and in context, they pose significant obstacle to any attempt to reconcile the nativity narratives with one another. Either one account is true and the other is not, or the lot are untrue; in any event, the disparity of account exists.
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 02:27 pm
Since the genealogies of Jesus have been brought up I thought I'd share exactly how far off from one another they are. Both Matthew and Luke go to great lengths to show that Jesus descended from the line of David, as the promised Messiah must be according to Jewish beliefs. To see the true magnitude of the descrepancy, one must only put the two geneaologies next to each other.

Gospel of Matthew/ Gospel of Luke

Jesus/Jesus
Joseph/Joseph
Jacob/Heli
Matthan/Matthat
Eleazar/Levi
Eliud/Melchi
Achim/Jannai
Zadok/Joseph
Azor/Mattathiah
Eliakim/Amos
Abiud/Nahum
Zerubbabel/Esli
Shealtiel/Naggai
Jeconiah/Maath
Josiah/Mattathiah
Amon/Semein
Manasseh/Josech
Hezekiah/Joda
Ahaz/Johanan
Jotham/Rhesa
Azariah/Zerubbabel
Joram/Shealtiel
Jehoshaphat/Neri
Asa/Melchi
Abijah/Addi
Rehoboam/Cosam
Solomon/Elmadam
David/Er
......../Joshua
......../Eliezer
......../Jorim
......../Matthat
......../Levi
......../Symeon
......../Judah
......../Joseph
......../Jonam
......../Eliakim
......../Melea
......../Menna
......../Mattatha
......../Nathan
......../David

Luke continues his genealogy past David all the way back through the Patriarchs to Adam and eventually to God himself. From just one generation back the family lineages that the two gospels present are utterly different from each other.

Edit: Sorry for the bad formatting I couldn't figure out how to put them in nice columns.
0 Replies
 
Anonymous
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 04:45 pm
SN95 wrote:
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

This is a fairly straight forward statement. I don't see how I could have pulled it out of context nor could their be errancy due to point of view. They (as they appear in the text) are contradictory to one another. Now you may tell me how you reinterpret what was said so that it is no longer contradictory.

First, let me clarify that Ahaziah was 22 when he became king. Earlier in 2 Kings 8:17 the author mentions that Ahaziah's father Joram ben Ahab was 32 when he became King, and he died eight years later, at the age of 40. Ahaziah's father could not have died at age 40 if Ahaziah himself was 42.

As for the inconsistancy in the number, have a look at the quote below.

Muslim apologist Shabbir Ally wrote:
[This is a] case of scribal error, evidenced commonly with numbers. It may be helpful to interject here that there were three known ways of writing numbers in Hebrew. The earliest, a series of notations used by the Jewish settlers in the 5th century BC Elephantine Papyri (described in more detail below) was followed by a system whereby alphabetical letters were used for numbers. A further system was introduced whereby the spelling out of the numbers in full was prescribed by the guild of so-perim. Fortunately we have a large file of documents in papyrus from these three sources to which we can refer.

As with many of these numerical discrepancies, it is the decade number that varies. It is instructive to observe that the number notations used by the Jewish settlers in the 5th century BC Elephantine Papyri, during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, from which this passage comes, evidences the earlier form of numerical notation. This consisted of a horizontal stroke ending in a downward hook at its right end to represent the numbers in tens (thus two horizontal strokes one above the other would be 20). Vertical strokes were used to represent anything less than ten. Thus eight would be /III IIII, but eighteen would be /III IIII with the addition of a horizontal line and downward hook above it. Similarly twenty-two would be /I followed by two horizontal hooks, and forty-two would be /I followed by two sets of horizontal hooks (please forgive the deficiencies of my computer; it is not the scholar Dr. Archer is).

If, then, the primary manuscript from which a copy was being carried out was blurred or smudged, one or more of the decadal notations could be missed by the copyist. It is far less likely that the copyist would have mistakenly seen an extra ten stroke that was not present in his original then that he would have failed to observe one that had been smudged.


This can explain the inconsistancy in the numbers. The same idea can be applied to any numerical inconsistancy (such as Jehoiachin's age when he became king [18 years old (2 Kings 24:8)/8 years old (2 Chronicles 36:9)]; context reveals that he was actually 18).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 05:09 pm
How ironic--the religiously convinced are willing to acknowledge that transcription errors could be made which would explain numerical inconsistencies, but won't for a moment let go of their death-grip on the concept of "revealed truth," because every word of the bobble is to be considered god's word. If transcriptionists have made errors in petty matters, why should one accept the contention that no errors have been made in fundamental issues?

It is, however, as always, entertaining to see the dance . . .
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 08:52 pm
<thankgodforsetantahowevermuchweargue>
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 08:53 pm
not that I admit there is one. No interest to me.
0 Replies
 
 

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