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Rumsfeld: 'Iraq - we have no EXIT policy'

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 10:48 am
Here's another Kodak Moment that's hard to forget:

http://home.att.net/~trackitdown/kerry-with-communists.jpg
Quote:
Communist Vietnamese honor John Kerry, the war protestor, as a hero in their victory over the United States in the Vietnam War.
In the Vietnamese Communist War Remnants Museum (formerly known as the "War Crimes Museum") in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon), a photograph of John Kerry hangs in a room dedicated to the anti-war activists who helped the Vietnamese Communists win the Vietnam War. The photograph shows Senator Kerry being greeted by the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam, Comrade Do Muoi.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 10:50 am
Them boys lapped up the Chinese campaign contributions as well, they certainly weren't behind hand when those bucks were being passed out . . .
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 10:52 am
Angels don't do politics, that's fer sure.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 10:55 am
No man's life or property are safe while the legislature is in session.

-- Samuel Clemens
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 10:58 am
While it is true we have the best politicians money can buy, the thing for which we should be most eternally grateful is that we get nowhere near the government we pay for
-- Will Rogers


Laughing
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 08:58 pm
timberlandko wrote:
That your buddy Rockewll agrees with you in no way alters the fact The US had a very minor role in Iraq's military machine, bio-chemical or otherwise. Your argument in such respect is built on false premises.

Research strains of biologics were provided by the US Center for Disease Control to the Iraqi medical establishment, as part of an ongoin' international program of education, research and development, but that's the extent of US involvement with Iraq's bio-chem capabilities.

A bit of American-origin technical hardware of broad multiple application - primarilly along the lines of industrial electronics, also was provided, the bulk of which Iraq obtained through foreign branches or subsidiaries of US-owned firms.

Now, of course, none of that absolves the US from marginal complicity, but it certainly in no way equates US complicity with that of Germany, France, or Russia/The Former Soviet Union. The US might have supplied the hood ornament, but the engine, drive train, interior appointments, body work, and runnin' gear bore the "Made in Europe" label.


You're being duplicitous now, Timber. Mr Rockwell isn't my buddy; I don't even know the man.

Your naivete knows no bounds. The facts as you'd like to believe them and the facts are two different things. "a bit"; "marginal complicity"; "broad multiple application"; an ongoin' international program of education, research and development; ...

Why couldn't these same excuses apply to the European suppliers? Why were all/most/many of these "honest" USA dealings funneled thru the CIA thru foreign countries or companies. Does this sound like an honest group of people involved in a wee bit of "ongoin' international ... education, research and development"?

In this one situation, was the USA simply frozen out of the deal? The USA doesn't have to be the number one supplier of everything to everyone. As Mr Rockwll noted, and many others have also shown, the USA is, far and away, the "leading merchant of death" on the planet.

Maybe this is bigger than we thought in the first place.

"We can't let this go on, we have too small a share in these lucrative dealings. I know, let's invade and then we'll be the top dog again. Wait, that'll seem like too much of a power play.

Oh, I know, we can play the old democracy routine again. Many of our citizens love that old schitck, they just lap it up, no questions asked. The rest, we'll use our infamous buffalo 'em routine; lie lie lie til they're so dizzy they can't stand up. It'll be good for a least the rest of this term, hell, we may even be able to squeak a new term out of it."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 09:17 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Here's another Kodak Moment that's hard to forget:


There is a vast difference between the two and it's not at all surprising that you fail to see it, Timber.

Mr Kerry spoke only the truth, a very unpopular truth but the truth nevertheless. Whatever he and other right-minded citizens of the USA and the world did to help defeat the aggressors in an ujust war was the correct thing to do, the moral thing to do.

Carpet bombing citizens and spraying chemical weapons and using napalm and {fill in the blank} are not moral things to do.

Compare that to the picture of Rummy & Saddam and what was going on at that time; the illegalities, the lies, the duplicity.

Polar opposites!

Why is it that you have so much difficulty with the truth?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 09:19 pm
You're far more committed to your agenda than to the facts, JTT, deprivin' your argument of any credibility whatsoever. I invite you to substantively refute any of the facts I have presented, and challenge you to provide substantiation for any of the allegations you have levelled or conjectures you have posed.
you wrote:
Why couldn't these same excuses apply to the European suppliers?

Simply because thats what the credible, multiply independently verifiable evidence reveals.
you wrote:
Why were all/most/many of these "honest" USA dealings funneled thru the CIA thru foreign countries or companies.

Again, quite simply, that was not the case, and no credible, multiply independently verifiable evidence to support the claim exists.

Now, when I say "evidence", that means"credible, multiply independently verifiable evidence", not opinion.


I'll stipulate to the point the US provides the arsenal of liberty, no argument there.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 10:02 pm
JTT wrote:
There is a vast difference between the two and it's not at all surprising that you fail to see it, Timber.

Oh there's a vast difference all right, and I recognize it fully. It seems you're the one havin' problems with that bit.

Quote:
Mr Kerry spoke only the truth, a very unpopular truth but the truth nevertheless. Whatever he and other right-minded citizens of the USA and the world did to help defeat the aggressors in an ujust war was the correct thing to do, the moral thing to do.

Nonsense. Kerry and his fellow travellers betrayed the Vietnamese people, abandonin' them to the Communist yoke under which they still suffer, settin' the stage for further horror and atrocity throughout Southeast Asia, while himself participatin' in treasonous acts. BTW, I do not hold Nixon blameless in that shameful episode either. Kerry et al gave the US its first major military embarrassment, and was followed by by Carter's enablin' of the Iran debacle and Clintion's Somalian cut-and-run. Those days, those ways, are over.

Quote:
Carpet bombing citizens and spraying chemical weapons and using napalm and {fill in the blank} are not moral things to do.

You have no concept of what carpet bombin' is. It was employed on occasion in Vietnam, notably in the defense of Khe San, and along the Ho Chi Minh trail. I have seen carpet bombin', up close enough to feel the heat and concussion of the detonations, to smell the explosives, the torn earth and shattered trees, and to duck as debris rained down around me. Intensive, asset-specific bombin' - not carpet bombin', but intensive asset-specific bombin' - there is a big difference - was employed against port, industrial, and rail facillities in North Vietnam, the later execution of which led directly to the North vietnamese return to the Paris Peace Talks. Residential and commercial districts specifically were not targeted in any case. I don't deny there were civilian casualties and damge to civilian infrastructure, that's the nature of war. War truly sucks for everyone involved. Unfortunate, and unforeseen developments proceeded from the aerial defoliation operations, yes. Again, war sucks, and neither civilian personnel nor civilian infrastructure was targeted by defoliation. Its purpose was to deny the enemy shelter and ambush opportunity, primarily along watercourse banks. Again, yes, some civilians suffered consequences attributable to defoliation. Again, war sucks. Napalm is simply a weapon of war. Its nasty stuff, yeah, but war sucks.

you wrote:
Compare that to the picture of Rummy & Saddam and what was going on at that time; the illegalities, the lies, the duplicity.

Polar opposites!

You betchya - a traitor consortin' with, aidin', abettin', and acceptin' the thanks of an enemy, and a government official on a government-sanctioned (though through hindsight an admittedly likely ill-advised) mission interactin' in good faith with a head of state who proved duplicitous, a head of state who blatantly and callously abbrogated the obligations he undertook in return for consideration given. Yup, big difference.

you wrote:
Why is it that you have so much difficulty with the truth?

Ain't me who's got the problem.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 11:25 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Ain't me who's got the problem.


Ramsey Clark: Sadly, I think most Americans don't have an opinion about our foreign policy. Worse than that, when they do think about it, it's in terms of the demonization of enemies and the exaltation of our capacity for violence.

Neighborhood Bully
Ramsey Clark on American Militarism

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/NeighborhoodBully.html
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 12:22 am
Ramsey Clark, US Attorney General for the last 2 years of Lyndon Johnson's administration, and a key figure in the anti-segregation movement, has an impressive set of credentials. He currently is one of Saddam Hussein's lawyers. Opponent - along with Kerry - of the US Action in Vietnam, he also opposed both Gulf wars and the British defense of the Falkland Islands against Argentine invasion and annexation. There have been few anti-Western, and fewer still anti-Amjerican, causes with which Mr Clark has not been in one way or another associated since the 1970s.

Among the organizations in which Clark is a principal figure are Vote To Impeach, a rabidly anti-Bush lobby, and The International Action Center, which is closely allied - intertwined, in fact - with the Worker's World Party, American arm of The Communist Party. He is also a founder of ANSWER, one the most prominent and vitriolic critics of US policy ever to emerge outside of the old Soviet Bloc.

Accorded Mr Clark's legal services have been such notables as Yugoslavian butcher Slobodan Milosovec, Liberian butcher Charles Taylor, Rwandan butcher Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, former Nazi Karl Linnas, Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, cult leader, political enigma and convicted fraudster Lyndon LaRouche, and the state of Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Mr Clark also is on record as bein' highly critical of those who took exception to the Chinese Government's handlin' of the Tianamen Square uprisin'.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:25 am
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:49 am
timberlandko wrote:
Ramsey Clark, US Attorney General for the last 2 years of Lyndon Johnson's administration, and a key figure in the anti-segregation movement, has an impressive set of credentials. He currently is one of Saddam Hussein's lawyers.

Tell me T, what is the job of a lawyer in your America?

Opponent - along with Kerry - of the US Action in Vietnam,

You mean the one where 3 million or so people were slaughtered by the USA in yet another illegal war. What a shock that the man shoud be so moral!

he also opposed both Gulf wars

Last time I checked, that was a right given to him by the Constitution.

There have been few anti-Western, and fewer still anti-Amjerican, causes with which Mr Clark has not been in one way or another associated since the 1970s.

For these dismal patriots, the American way only extends to those who support their myopic view. Free speech is only free when they say it is. Timber is headin' off on one of his famous tangents.

Don't address the issues, don't address what the man has said, ignore the truth. You prove my point every time you open your mouth, Timber.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 02:47 am
JTT wrote:



Again your agenda is at odds with reality. The Vincennes/Iranian Airbus incident was hardly a deliberate, knowin' attack on a civilian airliner, it was a screw-up, a tragedy of war. The incident has been the focus of much conjecture and posture. Here are some relevant facts, related by the commander of Vincennes, as fully supported both by US Navy and independent investigations, US and foreign. Every explanatory statement below is matter of verifiable public record, and not one of Captain Roger's contentions regardin' the action ever has been successfully refuted.

Quote:
Counterbattery
By Captain Will Rogers, US Navy (Retired)


No one involved, certainly including me, denies or shrinks from the responsibility for the tragic destruction of Iran Air Flight 655, but there are no hidden agendas or explosive facts awaiting revelation.


Subsequent to the downing of Flight 655, many issues have been put forth that are not based on fact. The genesis of these range from simple misunderstanding to deliberate presentation of misinformation. Since in the main they have been and continue to be presented in a sensational fashion, the themes tend to cloud accurate perception of what is most certainly a complex matrix of events. These issues and their counterpoints are offered to lend first-hand perspective to this event.


Issue: The Navy has failed to take advantage of the lessons learned from the VINCENNES incident.


Counter: To date, thousands of hours have been expended in analyzing every facet of the events of 3 July 1988. Tactical, operational, and human factors, plus equipment and training issues have been examined and numerous changes and modifications have been implemented. Pertinent lessons-learned files have been incorporated into the Navy Lessons Learned Data Base (NLLDB), and the actual VINCENNES war diary tapes have been incorporated into the Aegis Training Center prospective commanding and executive officer team-training curriculum. The results of much of this effort were incorporated into procedures employed during Desert Shield/Desert Storm, and the effort continues.


Issue: The Department of Defense and the Navy should declassify the report of the Board of Investigation in its entirety.


Counter: This drumbeat is normally couched so as to leave the impression that the classifying authorities have some sinister and/or conspiratorial rationale for maintaining the report under a classified umbrella. Not so. Portions of the report address capabilities, sensitive procedures, and intelligence information which, for the foreseeable future, must remain classified and accessible only to those with need to know. These restrictions, I might add, apply even to the parties to the investigation. There is simply no hidden "blockbuster" information. To the contrary, the convening and classifying authorities moved quickly to provide public access to the basic report and findings.


Issue: The crewmembers of the VINCENNES were less than fully prepared for their mission.


Counter: Statements of this ilk are not supported by fact. The states of training and readiness of the ship were the subject of a thorough review during the course of the formal investigation, and both domains were found to be at the highest levels. These findings were supported by in-depth documentation obtained from Commanders Third Fleet, Seventh Fleet, and Naval Surface Forces Pacific, as well as sworn testimony of the Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet and Commander Middle East Force representatives to the investigative board, and are a matter of public record.


Issue: The VINCENNES was overly aggressive and charged into the situation hoping to prove herself...the aircraft was not a threat, etc.


Counter: In the main, the genesis of this theme emanates from Captain David Carlson, the former commanding officer of USS SIDES (FFG-14) [Editor's Note: See D. R. Carlson, pp. 87-92. September 1989 Proceedings] whose clarity of hindsight concerning the events in which he was only indirectly involved appears to have improved with the passage of time. The facts are:


>He was provided an opportunity in a legally constituted forum to voice his view and provide information supportive of his subsequent public comments. He did not do this.


>No testimony presented during the course of the hearings support his contentions.


>If in fact his grasp of the developing tactical situation was as complete as he has indicated, then he must assume responsibility for failing to pass this insight to his officer in tactical command (ie., the VINCENNES's commanding officer--me).


Issue: The rules of engagement (ROES) were murky and contributed to a "hair-trigger" atmosphere.


Counter: To the contrary, the ROEs were and are succinct and clear in both intent and latitude. They provide useful guidance and a framework for measured response in the ambiguous atmosphere of low-intensity conflict. Following missile attack on the USS Stark (FFG-31), the ROEs were modified to underscore the responsibility of the on-scene commander to exercise the inherent right of self-defense in a timely fashion.


The appropriate question should be: Are the ROEs weighted to protect American lives and property?


The answer: Absolutely!


Issue: In violation of international law, the VINCENNES and the Montgomery entered Iranian waters.


Counter: The presence of the VINCENNES and/or the Montgomery in Iranian territorial waters during the course of the engagement did not constitute a violation of international law. When the determination of hostile intent on the part of the Iranian small craft was made, both U.S. ships were in international waters. During the course of the following surface action while maneuvering at high speed both the VINCENNES and the Montgomery exercised their right of self-defense pursuant to international law reflected in Article 51 of the U.N. charter and entered Iranian waters. Under the law of self-defense, warships and military aircraft may enter foreign territory whenever military exigencies dictate. Navigational positioning data pertinent to the entire engagement track were automatically recorded on the war diary tapes and provided to both the investigative board and International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) representatives. Readers interested in a broader examination of this--as well as other issues related to the events of 3 July 1988--may wish to obtain a copy of the 18 September 1992 Naval War College Memorandum, subject, "USS VINCENNES (CG-49) and the shoot-down of Iranian Airbus Flt 655" prepared for the Center for Naval Warfare Studies by Professor R. J. Grunawalt.


Issue: The Iran Air pilot could not have heard the radioed warnings; his radio bands were full of air control information.


Counter: Annex 10 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, to which Iran is a party, provides that commercial aircraft "shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHZ in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority." The International Civil Aviation Organization confirmed that the Strait of Hormuz in 1988 was such an area and that a Notice to Aviators Class I warning had been promulgated in September 1987 advising that "failure to respond to warnings could place aircraft at risk by U.S. defensive measures. ICAO confirmed that "since 16 September 1986, Iran Air flight crews operating in the Gulf area...required to monitor frequency 121.5 MHZ...at all times."


Issue: The crew of the VINCENNES reported the aircraft as descending when in fact it was climbing.


Counter: The probable root cause of this important discrepancy required extensive analysis by large numbers of people before a satisfactory explanation was determined and agreed upon. The results of this effort reveal that the problem lay neither with the Aegis system nor directly with the console operators but rather within the Navy Tactical Data System Link 11 network and the assignment of track numbers (TNs) to the contact.


On lift off, the Airbus was assigned TN 4474 by the VINCENNES from her assigned track block. Shortly thereafter TN 4131 was assigned to the same contact by the SIDES. The Aegis system, recognizing that the two track numbers applied to the same contact, dropped the number assigned by the VINCENNES (TN 4474) and adopted the number assigned by the SIDES (TN 4131). The investigative report documents that this save track number feature was an automatic function of the Aegis system and notes that TN 4474 was also available for assignment by U.S. and allied warships operating in the North Arabian Sea and the Gulf of Oman. The investigation and subsequent analysis established that TN 4474 was hooked by a watchstander in the VINCENNES after 4131 became the identifier for the Airbus. Should one or more watchstanders--operating in a time- compressed situation and unaware of the track number switch--have interrogated the system for contact parameter information, the system would have responded with current data on TN 4474. This number now was assigned by a unit in the Gulf of Oman to an accelerating and descending aircraft of a surface combat air patrol (SUCAP) operating from the carrier USS Forrestal (CV-59) package. In fact, such a system query did occur when the Airbus was approximately 20 nautical miles from the VINCENNES.


This greatly simplified causal analysis has been included in the Aegis Training Center incident- training syllabus. A thorough treatment of this particular event chain is contained in a masters thesis submitted to the Naval Postgraduate School by Captain K. A. Dotterway, U. S. Air Force, titled "Systematic Analysis of Complex Dynamic Systems: The Case of the USS VINCENNES."


Issue: In the case of the VINCENNES, the Navy abrogated the ethical standards inherent to the traditions of command at sea.


Counter: The principals in the incident were party to a complete, thorough and formal investigation which contained in its convening precept a statement to the effect that should testimony or findings so warrant, the investigation would be halted and proceedings under Article 32 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice initiated. During the course of the formal investigation all details of the events in question were completely examined. Time lines and decision streams down to 1/1,000 of a second were subjected to intense scrutiny. The president of the investigative board was empowered to obtain any information he saw fit and use any subject matter expertise available. Both options were widely employed. The findings of the board were reviewed by both the Navy and the convening authority chains and included Commander-in-Chief, Central Command, the Chief of Naval Operations, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Secretary of Defense.


The results of the investigation were briefed to the Armed Services Committees of the House and Senate and provided by the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs to the media for publication. Throughout, all parties, which certainly included the commanding officer, were held fully and completely accountable, as they should have been.


There are other published flights of ill-informed fancy. Perhaps the most bizarre alleges that the VINCENNES, other forces operating in the Gulf, and higher Department of Defense authorities were parties to a secret conspiracy to force conflict with Iranian forces. This particular misrepresentation is compounded by claims that the true events of 3 July 1988 were "covered up" and "whitewashed" to preclude the revelation of a "secret war."
Source


There seems to me little point layin' facts before you, though; you are steeped in your fact-free, opinion-driven, anti-Bush, anti-US agenda. You're welcome to it, thanks in no small part to the US and its actions on the world stage.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 03:28 am
timberlandko wrote:
JTT wrote:



Again your agenda is at odds with reality. The Vincennes/Iranian Airbus incident was hardly a deliberate, knowin' attack on a civilian airliner, it was a screw-up, a tragedy of war.

What war, Timber? The USA wasn't in any war. And you're going to believe "them". Can you say MyLai cover-up?

Can you imagine what the USA would have done had the same thing happened around LAX? In fact, we know what happens when the USA concocts phony "happenings", innocent people die; The Maine, Tonkin, ... . It's deja vu all over again with Iraq.


==============
Miltary Blunders

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/military_blunders/mb_iasd.html

==================

Note how the stories, the facts, shifted as they were told by this paragon of veracity, the "captain" of the Vincennes. When lying comes to US government leaders as easily as does breathing, can you expect any better from the military.

Can you locate for me, the offers of condolences and the money that was paid out to the victims of this "mistake" by the US government?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:59 am
JTT,
You sdaid..."Can you locate for me, the offers of condolences and the money that was paid out to the victims of this "mistake" by the US government?"

I would suggest you read this...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_n2139_v88/ai_6876360

And from here...
http://www.payvand.com/news/00/oct/1166.html

we get this..."the families of the victims of the Iranian Airbus were awarded only $0.25 million."

There are other sources for the official apology AND the amount we paid,but these two should give you a place to start.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 01:31 pm
Wouldn't worry to much about it, mysteryman - some folks got their mind made up so far the light of fact ain't ever gonna shine there.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 07:17 am
Marines From Iraq Sound Off About Want of Armor and Men

By MICHAEL MOSS

Published: April 25, 2005

n May 29, 2004, a station wagon that Iraqi insurgents had packed with C-4 explosives blew up on a highway in Ramadi, killing four American marines who died for lack of a few inches of steel.

The four were returning to camp in an unarmored Humvee that their unit had rigged with scrap metal, but the makeshift shields rose only as high as their shoulders, photographs of the Humvee show, and the shrapnel from the bomb shot over the top.

"The steel was not high enough," said Staff Sgt. Jose S. Valerio, their motor transport chief, who along with the unit's commanding officers said the men would have lived had their vehicle been properly armored. "Most of the shrapnel wounds were to their heads."

Among those killed were Rafael Reynosa, a 28-year-old lance corporal from Santa Ana, Calif., whose wife was expecting twins, and Cody S. Calavan, a 19-year-old private first class from Lake Stevens, Wash., who had the Marine Corps motto, Semper Fidelis, tattooed across his back.

They were not the only losses for Company E during its six-month stint last year in Ramadi. In all, more than one-third of the unit's 185 troops were killed or wounded, the highest casualty rate of any company in the war, Marine Corps officials say.

In returning home, the leaders and Marine infantrymen have chosen to break an institutional code of silence and tell their story, one they say was punctuated not only by a lack of armor, but also by a shortage of men and planning that further hampered their efforts in battle, destroyed morale and ruined the careers of some of their fiercest warriors.

The saga of Company E, part of a lionized battalion nicknamed the Magnificent Bastards, is also one of fortitude and ingenuity. The marines, based at Camp Pendleton in southern California, had been asked to rid the provincial capital of one of the most persistent insurgencies, and in enduring 26 firefights, 90 mortar attacks and more than 90 homemade bombs, they shipped their dead home and powered on. Their tour has become legendary among other Marine units now serving in Iraq and facing some of the same problems.

"As marines, we are always taught that we do more with less," said Sgt. James S. King, a platoon sergeant who lost his left leg when he was blown out of the Humvee that Saturday afternoon last May. "And get the job done no matter what it takes."

The experiences of Company E's marines, pieced together through interviews at Camp Pendleton and by phone, company records and dozens of photographs taken by the marines, show they often did just that. The unit had less than half the troops who are now doing its job in Ramadi, and resorted to making dummy marines from cardboard cutouts and camouflage shirts to place in observation posts on the highway when it ran out of men. During one of its deadliest firefights, it came up short on both vehicles and troops. Marines who were stranded at their camp tried in vain to hot-wire a dump truck to help rescue their falling brothers. That day, 10 men in the unit died.

Sergeant Valerio and others had to scrounge for metal scraps to strengthen the Humvees they inherited from the National Guard, which occupied Ramadi before the marines arrived. Among other problems, the armor the marines slapped together included heavier doors that could not be latched, so they "chicken winged it" by holding them shut with their arms as they traveled.

"We were sitting out in the open, an easy target for everybody," Cpl. Toby G. Winn of Centerville, Tex., said of the shortages. "We complained about it every day, to anybody we could. They told us they were listening, but we didn't see it."

The company leaders say it is impossible to know how many lives may have been saved through better protection, since the insurgents became adept at overcoming improved defenses with more powerful weapons. Likewise, Pentagon officials say they do not know how many of the more than 1,500 American troops who have died in the war had insufficient protective gear.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/25/international/middleeast/25marines.html?th&emc=th
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:34 am
this reminds me that a while back i was wondering what the initial 68 billion of the famous 87 billion had been spent on. we've never really had a realistic breakdown of how it was being spent. but a lot of the anti-kerry rhetoric stood on the issue of armour for the troops.

it seems like those guys still don't have what, or enough of what they need to get their hard job done without hanging bare assed in the wind.

we're 2 years and counting. and they still don't have the factory built heavier armoured humvees. from a story i saw, they won't even begin to start rolling off the lines at the plant until june or july. then shipping, deployment, qa and such. so, more like september or so before they go into service?

what the hell is goin' on here?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 12:09 pm
www.dailywarnews.blogspot.com

Quote:
War News for Monday, April 25, 2005

Bring 'em on: Twin bombings in Shia market area leave 15 dead and 57 wounded in Baghdad.

Bring 'em on: US soldier killed in bomb attack on convoy in Baghdad.

Bring 'em on: US sailor killed by bomb attack in Fallujah.

Bring 'em on: Member of Interim National Assembly narrowly escapes assassination attempt in Baji.

Kidnapped Pakistani Diplomat freed.

Human Rights Watch call for inquiry to look at Donald Rumsfeld's possible role in the abuse of US military prisoners, a human rights group says. They say the US defence secretary may bear "command responsibility" for abuse in Iraq.

Now the US is demanding the names of passengers that overfly the United States.

Even Tony Blair has limits as to how far he will bend over for Bushboy. Laura Rozen has all the Bolton details. Meanwhile the poodle is coming under further pressure from his General Election rivals over the advice given by the Attorney General regarding the legality of the Iraq invasion.

Open the Fridge!

Lost History: Saddam Hussein's power had collapsed and the newly arrived US-led coalition forces were unable to prevent a crime against history. Professional smugglers connected to the international antiquities mafia managed to break some of the sealed doors of the Baghdad Museum storage rooms. They looted priceless artefacts such as the museum's entire collection of cylindrical seals and large numbers of Assyrian ivory carvings. More than 15,000 objects were taken. Many were smuggled out of Iraq and offered for sale.

Note to Bush: Iraqi army and police units are deserting their posts after the recent escalation in insurgent attacks, according to reports from around the country yesterday. On the Syrian border, US troops in the Sunni city of Husaybah report mass desertions. An Iraqi unit that had once grown to 400 troops now numbers a few dozen who are "holed up" inside a local phosphate plant. Major John Reed, of the 2nd Marine Regiment, said: "They will claim that they are ready to come back and fight but there are no more than 30 of them on duty on any given day and they are completely ineffective." In Mosul, which has been a hotspot since insurgents fleeing Fallujah effectively overran it last year, residents have complained to newspapers that police now rarely patrol and only appear in response to attacks. Well, I can understand why they are deserting their posts.

Don't criticise the Emperor: The UN's top human rights investigator in Afghanistan has been forced out under American pressure just days after he presented a report criticising the US military for detaining suspects without trial and holding them in secret prisons. Cherif Bassiouni had needled the US military since his appointment a year ago, repeatedly trying, without success, to interview alleged Taliban and al-Qa'ida prisoners at the two biggest US bases in Afghanistan, Kandahar and Bagram. Mr Bassiouni's report had highlighted America's policy of detaining prisoners without trial and lambasted coalition officials for barring independent human rights monitors from its bases.


Each and every item is linked... if you follow the link.

Cycloptichorn
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