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Should we obey secret laws?

 
 
DrewDad
 
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 02:45 pm
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/05058/462446.stm

Quote:
Grounded: Millionaire John Gilmore stays close to home while making a point about privacy
He's unable to travel because he refuses to present a government-approved ID
Sunday, February 27, 2005

By Dennis Roddy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


SAN FRANCISCO -- John Gilmore's splendid isolation began July 4, 2002, when, with defiance aforethought, he strolled to the Southwest Airlines counter at Oakland Airport and presented his ticket.

The gate agent asked for his ID.

Gilmore asked her why.

It is the law, she said.

Gilmore asked to see the law.

Nobody could produce a copy. To date, nobody has. The regulation that mandates ID at airports is "Sensitive Security Information." The law, as it turns out, is unavailable for inspection.

What started out as a weekend trip to Washington became a crawl through the courts in search of an answer to Gilmore's question: Why?

In post 9/11 America, asking "Why?" when someone from an airline asks for identification can start some interesting arguments. Gilmore, who learned to argue on the debate team in his hometown of Bradford, McKean County, has started an argument that, should it reach its intended target, the U.S. Supreme Court, would turn the rules of national security on end, reach deep into the tug-of-war between private rights and public safety, and play havoc with the Department of Homeland Security.

At the heart of Gilmore's stubbornness is the worry about the thin line between safety and tyranny.

<snip>

"I will show a passport to travel internationally. I'm not willing to show a passport to travel in my own country," Gilmore said. "I used to laugh at countries that had internal passports. And it's happened here and people don't even seem to know about it."

<click link at beginning to read the rest of a long article>
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 02:58 pm
You should obay all laws especially the secret ones muhahahaha.

Ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:13 pm
Well we have to obey secret laws now or we can be thrown in jail without a trial & without access to a lawyer. Anyone who complains must have something to hide. Why doesn't this fella want to show his ID to get on an airplane? Probably some damned terrorist.

This government needs to check on the books you read and the internet sites you visit. Their agents can break into any house they choose, snoop any conversation, and they don't want to have a judicial writ to do it. If they choose to do so, then we must accept their authority. They government is always right and god is on their side.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:18 pm
Can someone explain how a law can be "sensitive security information?"

Now we have to trust law enforcement to tell us what the law is?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:04 pm
He can drive anywhere he wants and not have to show anyone his ID providing he breaks no laws.

Airline companies get to make the rules if you wish to use their services.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:06 pm
So McGentrix is saying it is THE AIRLINES that has made this rule... not the Government.

Interesting.
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BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:12 pm
a secret law is an oxymoron

[and should only be obeyed by morons wearing oxgen masks]
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:16 pm
Quote:
When Gilmore asked to see the rules explaining why his photo ID is necessary for airline security, his request was denied. The regulation under which the Transportation Safety Administration, an arm of the Department of Homeland Security, instructs the airlines to collect such identification is classified as "Sensitive Security Information."
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:18 pm
Quote:
When Congress passes a law, it is as often as not up to some agency to decide what that law means and how to enforce it. Usually, those regulations are available for people to examine, even challenge if they conflict with the Constitution.

This wasn't the case when Congress passed the Air Transportation Security Act of 1974. The Department of Transportation was instructed to hold close information that would "constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" or "reveal trade secrets" or "be detrimental to the safety of persons traveling in air transportation."

The Federal Aviation Administration, then a branch of the transportation department, drew up regulations that established the category now known as Sensitive Security Information.

When the responsibility for air travel safety was transferred to the newly created Transportation Safety Administration, which was in turn made a branch of the new Department of Homeland Security, the oversight for Sensitive Security Information went with it. The language in the Homeland Security Act was broadened, subtly but unmistakably, where SSI was concerned.

It could not be divulged if it would "be detrimental to the security of transportation."

"By removing any reference to persons or passengers, Congress has significantly broadened the scope of SSI authority," wrote Todd B. Tatelman, an attorney for the Congressional Research Office. Tatelman was asked by Congress last year to look at the implications of Gilmore's case.

Tatelman's report found that the broadened language essentially put a cocoon of secrecy around 16 categories of information, such as security programs, security directives, security measures, security screening information "and a general category consisting of 'other information.' "
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:35 pm
McGentrix wrote:
He can drive anywhere he wants and not have to show anyone his ID providing he breaks no laws.


But you have to know that there IS A LAW to obey it and that would entail being able to READ IT! No?



Anyway, one of the pre-requisites of operating a motor vehicle is that you always carry your ID (licence) and are prepared to show it on request.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:47 pm
I believe ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.

Yes, operating a motor vehicle on public roads does require a drivers license. Not exactly an "internal passport" though.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 05:41 pm
I think ignorance of a law certainly CAN be a valid defense. I don't think everyone should be expected to keep up with every new law that is made on local, state, and national levels.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 06:26 pm
Nope, ignorance of the law is a pretty ancient maxim.

You are deemed to know the law therefore you can't use ignorance of a law as a defence.

Unless a law is secret.

And if it's secret then you shouldn't know about it.

So if you obey it then the authorities can only conclude that you know about the law.

But it's a secret law, therefore you know a secret and that means you're in biiiiiiig trouble! Shocked
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 06:35 pm
Whether or not you can, I state that you should be able to. It will remain my opinion. And I'm starting a club about it.

I think we might call ourselves the ignorant club.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 06:47 pm
goodfielder wrote:

So if you obey it then the authorities can only conclude that you know about the law.

But it's a secret law, therefore you know a secret and that means you're in biiiiiiig trouble! Shocked


LOL... damned if we do, damned if we don't.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 06:55 pm
I recall that Bill Bryson (the travel writer) had just returned to the US when he ran foul of such officiousness. He had booked a flight ticket in the name of 'B Bryson' and his documentation said 'W Bryson' (ie William) - no use pointing out that there is an obvious connection between the names 'William' and 'Bill'. I think he ended up having to show her one of his books with his photograph to get on board.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 07:16 pm
SCoates wrote:
Whether or not you can, I state that you should be able to. It will remain my opinion. And I'm starting a club about it.

I think we might call ourselves the ignorant club.


May I be a charter member? I have the required attrributes Smile
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 09:01 pm
goodfielder wrote:
SCoates wrote:
Whether or not you can, I state that you should be able to. It will remain my opinion. And I'm starting a club about it.

I think we might call ourselves the ignorant club.


May I be a charter member? I have the required attrributes Smile


Dunno about that - it is obvious that you can operate a computer, access the Internet and type and spell correctly. Have you thought about MENSA instead?
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 09:17 pm
Jeez they've dropped their entrance requirements Very Happy

Unfortunately they've all heard that old line by Groucho so they're onto me :wink:
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 04:08 am
http://www.cordis.lu/infowin/acts/analysys/products/handbook/groucho_max.gif
"I went to the Argentinian pampas, it was full of grouchos. Had to come home'.
0 Replies
 
 

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