Exactly, xingnu, but what these conservatives cannot concieve is that they will ever be out of power. How do you spell hubris?
Joe(and do they know what it means, really.)Nation
Cyclopchitorn says there is no way to tell whether the libraries have been already "raided" since they are not allowed to tell. I am very sorry but I am not aware of any part of the Patriot Act which muzzles the Libraries who have been visited/ Does Cyclo have a link?
Secondly, The ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES MADE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES.
Is Cyclo saying that the Attorney General is lying?
Again, the columnist of the Tribune, Chapman,reported that the Attorney General of the United States said that the Library provision of the Patriot Act had never been used.
If Cyclo has information to the contrary, I beg him to forward it to Ted Kennedy who would, I am sure make good use of it.
Chiczaira mentions some credible points, that none of you postulating liberals have addresses yet. How is it that the ACLU has made conflicting statements on the issue. Also, if the Act in question is such a "threat" to Americans' freedom, why was it passed by nearly unanimous majority four short years ago. All of a sudden the liberal army, of whom Ayn Rand calls - astutely - looters and moochers (not all of you, but some), are up in arms whining that their freedoms are being taken away. Your own representatives signed onto this law (look it up, only one Democrat was the sole vote in dissent). Are you admitting that they were only voting "yea" for political gain just after 9/11. And if you are, then they have absolutely no moral grounds for saying anything against it.
The fact of the possibility of abuse is a ridiculous, and typically bereaucratic argument, expected of liberals. Our government has an army, what's to say that they won't unleash it on the American populace? Our government has armed forces (FBI, ATF, DEA, DHS), what's to say that they won't gun down minorities (as so many African-American organizations try to say they do). The fact is, that any armed force or organization has the "potential" for abuse. The Patriot Act does in NO WAY encourage abuse of power, no more than an armored tank division. It is merely a tool, being used, up until now, almost entirely appropriately, to combat terrorists and other criminals. While I know liberals can only stomach the pulling of all teeth, and the declawing of every "martial" organization, it should be remembered that these same practitioners of passive cowardice are the first to rant and rave about the failings of these very same protectors.
If you are worry that the police are looking at your library cards you have either, been engaging in something you know you shouldn't, or you are just one of those hopeless obstructionists who think that the mere existing in the United States empowers you to every "freedom" that can be imagined to the detriment of the rest of your own society.
Hey, it isn't liberals who worry that the US Army is coming to get them, it's the folks who run around in the Oklahoma woods on weekends and call each other "Commander" who rage about that sort of stuff and they are more likely to supporters of Tom Coburn and Tom Delay then anybody from Massachusetts. And I think it's sweet that you guys think the Attorney General doesn't lie to Congress. Awwwww.
And you are missing the point. It's not them looking at our library cards that concerns actual not-brain-dead Americans, it's them looking at your library card.
When will conservatives get it right? 'Big Government is bad unless it's attacking those who oppose us' cannot be a viable strategy for long. Connect that to 'We're for the culture of life unless we are ex-secting some poor bastard.' and 'we give tax cuts to the mega-wealthy because, well, just because...' and 'The Social Security Trust fund bonds are meaningless pieces of paper' (thus so are the rest of the bonds issued by the US to Asian and European investors.) and you start to see just how hollow a philosophy you guys are hanging onto. By being so desperate for protection from the big government they despise conservatives resemble nothing more than adolescent teenagers in their sullenness and bitter outlooks.
Joe(democracy is for grown-ups)Nation
Joe Nation thinks it is sweet that the Attorney General doesn't lie to Congress. Does he really think that if the Patriot Act had been used in the libraries( contrary to what the AG said) that Ted Kennedy or Joe Biden wouldn't know about it and then be able to pin Gonzalez's hide to the wall because he lied about it? What piffle!!!!!
Joe Nation evidently missed the vote for the Patriot Act--the first time.
Guess how many Senators voted AGAINST THE PATRIOT ACT, JOE NATION?
ONE- SENATOR.
Feingold of Wisconsin.
If the left wing wants to complain about the Patriot Act they can start with all the rest of the Senators.
I wonder what Joe Nation doesn't understand about the ACLU. I hope he knows that the ACLU is one of the most liberal organizations in the USA.
THE ACLU IS GENERALLY IN FAVOR OF PASSING A NEW PATRIOT ACT WITH FEW EMENDATIONS.
Call them to find out why.
Jeepers I'm glad we don't have it in Oz.
OZ? Don't tell me you aren't in Kansas anymore.
Never been to Kansas. I must visit next time.
The only way to OZ is through Kansas
No, Qantas will do it pretty well.
I am very much afraid, goodfielder, that there is no OZ down under. Are you sure you don't mean Alice Springs?
Alice Springs - smack in the middle of Oz, that's the one.
Quote:THE ACLU IS GENERALLY IN FAVOR OF PASSING A NEW PATRIOT ACT WITH FEW EMENDATIONS.
Here's what the ACLU thinks of the new Patriot Act (Patriot II)
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11904&c=206
Here's what it says of the origional Patriot Act.
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206
By the way, the ACLU defends conservatives as well as liberals.
