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Liberals Obstructing in Favor of Terrorists - Patriot Act II

 
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 01:58 am
Quote:
DrewDad said:
Not so. There are always choices that one can make. Think of the New Hampshire state motto, for example


Ah! A challenge. I've never been to New Hampshire but I am an Americanophile so here we go....not googling...."Live Free or Die"?

If I'm right DD that's a heck of a choice Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 04:19 am
Just finished reading Lusatian's reply to my reply and boyo, it's a hot one.
Now, I've never claimed to be as wise a quoter of the LA Times, but it sure hurts to have my credentials questioned, (or was it my opinions?), I really couldn't tell. Apparently, Lusation only wants participation from experts on this subject-thread so the rest of you gobs, kiss off.

(See the technique is to raise the bar on your opposition, rather than to listen to what they have to say. "Nah, nah, nah, you may be right but since I disagree with you, you have to show me that you have the highest status possible or everything you say is drek." See how that works?)

Just for fun:
I've only been reading and listening on the subject of the FBI since I read Masters of Deceit in 1963, that was the beginning of a long personal history of interest in intelligence, but to answer Lusation's many interrogatories: my words are BLUE

Lusation asked
Quote:


Out of curiosity, how do you know what would improve the FBI's ability to apprehend suspects or terrorists? Are you an investigative agent? Have been. Are you on a panel in the Justice Department privy to data on arrests, warrants, convictions, cases? No. But such things are easyily apprehended. no pun intended. Have you ever been part of any investigation, or intelligence gathering effort in your life? Yes, both with USAF Intelligence and the Texas Department of Public Safety. I'm just wondering, because I'm curious how you can claim to have come upon these things that "need to happen" within the FBI? They have been the subject of numerous articles of late especally during the recent hearings on intelligence gathering. Weren't they reported in the LA Times?? Are you a subject matter expert? I don't know if I would call myself an expert, I'm too shy and humble, but I consider myself to be an informed person on many things, criminal intelligence being one of them, the art of making a great ommlette being one of the many others. You know you are blithely claiming that a computer system will improve serial killer hunts, child rape cases, terrorism investigations, drug seizures, and on and on the list goes ... Please enlighten, where is this "eureka" intellect coming from? No one knows for sure, it was always a surprise to my father when I spoke up about things he didn't know much about, it's probably the same for you.


Joe(If you didn't want to know, you shouldn't have asked.)Nation
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 04:32 am
You are a person of grace, Joe.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 04:45 am
Well! I've never been called that before!! Still, you are an expert on the subject, so I accept.

Joe( Gracie on the weekends) Nation
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 07:02 am
I think we can put Lusation firmly in the camp of sacrifice freedom for security.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 07:10 am
goodfielder wrote:
Quote:
DrewDad said:
Not so. There are always choices that one can make. Think of the New Hampshire state motto, for example


Ah! A challenge. I've never been to New Hampshire but I am an Americanophile so here we go....not googling...."Live Free or Die"?

If I'm right DD that's a heck of a choice Very Happy

LOL. An extreme example, to be sure. Lots of room between that and obey meekly and without question.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 07:10 am
I am still not clear on what freedoms have been sacrificed. Can you guys get a bit detailed about that for me?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 07:11 am
Actually, Lusatian should have known all that - he doesn't seem to be the best in doing intelligence/investigations.




And Joe really is a person of grace!
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 07:16 am
Please note the motto at the top: Keep America Safe and free.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 07:32 am
Conservative Voices Against the USA PATRIOT Act

Quote:
<snip>

State Rep. Janet Miller (R-Boise) ("Idaho GOP for limits on the Patriot Act," The Spokesman-Review, 6/15/2004)

"The Patriot Act was a very good idea. I think they just wrote it so hastily that they maybe went more in-depth than they should have done. We, of course, in Idaho really believe in personal freedom and not having the government meddle in our lives, so I think taking another look at it is a good idea."

Idaho GOP platform plank ("Idaho GOP for limits on the Patriot Act," The Spokesman-Review, 6/15/2004)

"The Patriot Act is necessary to facilitate the cooperation between law enforcement agencies. We support appropriate amendments to limit the incursion upon personal freedoms, rights, and liberties of American citizens."

<snip>

Bob Barr, former Republican member of Congress ("Patriot Act divides Bush loyalists," Washington Times, 4/5/2004)

"The Fourth Amendment is a nuisance to the administration, but the amendment protects citizens and legal immigrants from the government's monitoring them whenever it wants, without good cause -- and if that happens, it's the end of personal liberty."

"I don't care if there were no examples so far. We can't say we'll let government have these unconstitutional powers in the Patriot Act because they will never use them. Besides, who knows how many times the government has used them? They're secret searches."

<snip>

Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA-11) ("Feedback to the state of the union address," Contra Costa Times, 1/24/2004)

"I think Congress will spend more time debating the Patriot Act, or any reauthorization of the Patriot Act. We passed it originally in a time of crisis. I have concerns about provisions in the Patriot Act, particularly when it comes to protecting the privacy of the average American citizen."

Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI), Chair of the House Judiciary Committee ("Inside Politics," Washington Times, 1/23/2004)

Mr. Sensenbrenner, a member of the House Homeland Security Committee, said "over my dead body" will the act be reauthorized without undergoing thorough re-examination in hearings held by the House.

<snip>

Rep. C.L. "Butch" Otter (R-ID) ("Otter to speak on Patriot Act dissent," Idaho State Journal, 11/9/2003)

"You cannot give up freedom, you cannot give up liberty, and be safe. When your freedom is lost, it makes no difference who took it away from you. (The terrorists) have won. What did they want to do? Take away our freedom. They've won in some cases."

<snipped the rest of a fairly long page>


Quote:
Newt Gingrich, the former speaker of the House ("The Policies of War: Refocus the mission," San Francisco Chronicle, 11/11/03)
"We must ensure that the legal tools provided are not abused, and indeed, that they do not undermine the very foundation our country was built upon."

"I strongly believe the Patriot Act was not created to be used in crimes unrelated to terrorism."

"Recent reports, including one from the General Accounting Office, however indicate that the Patriot Act has been employed in investigations unconnected to terrorism or national security.

In our battle against those that detest our free and prosperous society, we cannot sacrifice any of the pillars our nation stands upon, namely respect for the Constitution and the rule of law. Our enemies in the war against terrorism abuse the Islamic law known as the Sharia that they claim to value. It is perversely used as justification for their horrific and wanton acts of violence.

We must demonstrate to the world that America is the best example of what a solid Constitution with properly enforced laws can bring to those who desire freedom and safety. If we become hypocrites about our own legal system, how can we sell it abroad or question legal systems different than our own?

I strongly believe Congress must act now to rein in the Patriot Act, limit its use to national security concerns and prevent it from developing "mission creep" into areas outside of national security.

Similarly, if prosecutors lack the necessary legislation to combat other serious domestic crimes, crimes not connected to terrorism, then lawmakers should seek to give prosecutors separate legislation to provide them the tools they need, but again not at the expense of civil rights. But in no case should prosecutors of domestic crimes seek to use tools intended for national security purposes.

This war against terrorism requires Americans and American institutions to have the "courage to be safe," this courage must include keeping to the American principles that have made this country great for more than 200 years."
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 11:41 am
Re: Liberals Obstructing in Favor of Terrorists - Patriot Ac
Lusatian wrote:
Why is it that Democrats take such offense to a law designed and exercised as a means for law enforcement to combat terrorism and other criminal behavior, drugs, child molestation, murder, etc?

Please See Article Below

...They want a terrorism investigation be forced to comply with what, very likely, will be weeks of bereaucratic paper shuffling and court appearances, obviously tipping off the suspect to the investigation, and thereby rendering any surprise or intelligence obtained invalid. Their excuse ... I'm not sure, as it is inconceivable to me why someone would want to protect terror suspects. Any verbose Democrats care to explain?

Yeah, wouldn't want any bothersome paperwork and investigative legwork to avoid something like described below.

...1% people. 1% of cases in drug, murder, and terrorism cases, ONLY! What possible objection can the whiners of Congress, and the rest of America, have against such an incredible law enforcement tool? This provision greatly assists in keeping the suspect in question in the dark. The law is simply dummy proof.

1% is a large number if it is you, your family, your life, your career at stake.

...Simply put, if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to fear. If you are not a terrorist, murderer, or child molester, chances are the worst thing that could possibly happen is you may be investigated in error for a little while, but that is possible regardless of the law. Anyone who strongly objects to such a law is either merely a first class obstructionist, who probably raises objection to anything that has "force" in its nomenclature (law enforcement), or they are engaged in activities that they know would come to very bad light if it got out. Either way, they must get over it.

Tell that to the fella in the article that follows:


Gonzales Admits Patriot Act Used in Mayfield Case
Rukmini Callimachi
The Associated Press
04-07-2005

Ever since the FBI admitted it wrongly arrested him in connection with the Madrid train bombings, Brandon Mayfield has contended the government used the Patriot Act to search his home and gather personal information to portray him as a Muslim militant.

The Justice Department denied Mayfield's claims -- until Tuesday.

At a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in Washington, D.C., Attorney General Alberto Gonzales acknowledged that provisions of the controversial act were used to investigate Mayfield, a Muslim convert.

Mayfield was arrested May 6, after the FBI claimed his fingerprint matched a fingerprint found on a bag of detonators near the scene of the Madrid train bombings, in which 191 people were killed. He was freed two weeks later after the FBI admitted the fingerprints were not his.

At the congressional hearing Tuesday on whether 15 sections of the law set to expire at year's end should be renewed, Gonzales at first denied the FBI used the Patriot Act while investigating Mayfield.

"Senator, I think we have said publicly -- if not, I guess I'm saying it publicly -- that the Patriot Act was not used in connection with the Brandon Mayfield case,'' he told Sen. Dianne Feinstein.

But later, after Feinstein asked him a different question, Gonzales corrected himself: "You asked me specifically about the Mayfield case and I'm advised that there were certain provisions of the Patriot Act that apparently were used,'' he said.

Gonzales said one code from the act that was used deals with extending the duration of electronic surveillance. Another makes it easier to obtain warrants to search the private residences of U.S. citizens -- a provision that has raised concerns about constitutional guarantees against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Mayfield's attorneys and some legal experts believe the Justice Department has been reluctant to admit that the Patriot Act was used in the case for fear it would taint the image of the 2001 law as its provisions come up for reauthorization.

"This administration is more concerned with public relations than an honest scrutiny of the Patriot Act -- a law which is the most dangerous attack on civil liberties since the McCarthy era," said Elden Rosenthal, an attorney for Mayfield.

Source
0 Replies
 
Lusatian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 12:55 am
Quote:
Gonzales Admits Patriot Act Used in Mayfield Case
Rukmini Callimachi
The Associated Press
04-07-2005

Ever since the FBI admitted it wrongly arrested him in connection with the Madrid train bombings, Brandon Mayfield has contended the government used the Patriot Act to search his home and gather personal information to portray him as a Muslim militant.

The Justice Department denied Mayfield's claims -- until Tuesday.

At a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in Washington, D.C., Attorney General Alberto Gonzales acknowledged that provisions of the controversial act were used to investigate Mayfield, a Muslim convert.

Mayfield was arrested May 6, after the FBI claimed his fingerprint matched a fingerprint found on a bag of detonators near the scene of the Madrid train bombings, in which 191 people were killed. He was freed two weeks later after the FBI admitted the fingerprints were not his.

At the congressional hearing Tuesday on whether 15 sections of the law set to expire at year's end should be renewed, Gonzales at first denied the FBI used the Patriot Act while investigating Mayfield.

"Senator, I think we have said publicly -- if not, I guess I'm saying it publicly -- that the Patriot Act was not used in connection with the Brandon Mayfield case,'' he told Sen. Dianne Feinstein.

But later, after Feinstein asked him a different question, Gonzales corrected himself: "You asked me specifically about the Mayfield case and I'm advised that there were certain provisions of the Patriot Act that apparently were used,'' he said.

Gonzales said one code from the act that was used deals with extending the duration of electronic surveillance. Another makes it easier to obtain warrants to search the private residences of U.S. citizens -- a provision that has raised concerns about constitutional guarantees against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Mayfield's attorneys and some legal experts believe the Justice Department has been reluctant to admit that the Patriot Act was used in the case for fear it would taint the image of the 2001 law as its provisions come up for reauthorization.

"This administration is more concerned with public relations than an honest scrutiny of the Patriot Act -- a law which is the most dangerous attack on civil liberties since the McCarthy era," said Elden Rosenthal, an attorney for Mayfield.

Source


Squinney, reading the article you posted, the prominent question in my mind to you is, why do you think that one misstep justifies the end of the system. There is the expression "throw the baby out with the bath water", that would adequately describe your point - if the point you're making with this article is that the Mayfield case is evidence of the Patriot Act gone wrong. The fact of the matter is, the Mayfield case is evidence that the Patriot Act works incredibly well indeed. Any investigation, of any crime, but especially the more major incidents, will turn up large numbers of false positives, dead-end leads, and mistaken suspects. It's just part of the game. In this case the Patriot Act cleared this suspect far faster than would have been the case. You see, since they searched his house, kept him under surveillance, and questioned him under Patriot Act provision, that all served to point to his innocence. When they realized the mistake with the fingerprint that was the confirmation. There are things that most certainly came up in the gumshoe police work that was done under the Patriot Act. His whereabouts, his friends and associates, his communications, that would have ultimately proved his innocence. So, if the FBI had spent weeks gathering warrants, supoenas, conducting hearings, etc, his time under suspicion would have grown exponentially.

Are you saying that the FBI should never be wrong, and if wrong, be penalized?

I think I would speak for all in the government agencies, intelligence services, and law enforcement offices, if I said, STOP WHINING! Sometimes inconveniences may have to be tolerated when attempting to apprehend terrorists, murderers, drug dealers, or other criminals who refuse to wear the cardboard "I am a violent criminal" sign that liberals assume all the legally challenged must sport.

It is so typical of the neo-liberal to spent countless man hours (on this site especially), criticizing this administration, and the intelligence agencies, for not detecting and thwarting 9/11, but then turn around and denounce and refuse authorities the added powers needed to prevent a repeat. Evidence of the conflicting, convoluted, nuanced-to-the-point-of-the-ridiculous mentality that has defeated the liberal party in every election this half of the millenium.

And, by the way Walter, I may not be the blogosphere regent resident as you are. But, to question my intelligence/investigation experience or prowess, is indicative of just how little you know past the opinion forum post-it sites. While I would never claim to be the finest operative, my day in and day out is involved in this exact field. And since I've done this same job in three different theaters, six different countries, been trained for it through military intelligence schools, the DEA academy at Quantico, and a couple of other agencies that will not be named, I find your comment to be the insipid dismissal of all the neo-liberals on this site (especially those out of country), that they use as their defense to those of opposing opinions, who actually work in the field and feel the effects of the policies that you all so whimsically suggest and promulgate.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 01:36 am
Well, Lusatian, my own intelligence/investigation experiences are really very small - only some minor with the police forces ("state FBI") and my military ones stop at NATO-secret level.

I hardly can compare with Joe's - and the latter, well, you just ignored his, so ...?



So I'll stay here whimsically suggesting and promulgating.

"Here now I stand, poor fool, and see
I'm just as wise as formerly."
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 03:09 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, Lusatian, my own intelligence/investigation experiences are really very small - only some minor with the police forces ("state FBI") and my military ones stop at NATO-secret level.

I hardly can compare with Joe's - and the latter, well, you just ignored his, so ...?



So I'll stay here whimsically suggesting and promulgating.

"Here now I stand, poor fool, and see
I'm just as wise as formerly."


Walter - I know nothing of your NATO history.

Are you able to elucidate?

PS: Lusatian - why do you two use whimsical as such an insult?

whimsy [whim·sy || 'hwɪmzɪ /'w-]

n. impulsiveness; captivating eccentricity


Odd.....

(later: Tried whimsical: It becomes oddly sinister, given the noun - still, I understand you guys better:

himsical [whim·si·cal || 'hwɪmzɪkl /'w-]

adj. given to whims; capricious; strange and amusing


• WHIMSICAL

eccentric, lunatic for Vocabulary Exams of KPDS, YDS,UDS (in Turkey); and SAT in America

• whimsical

Capricious. hEnglish - advanced version

• whimsical


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whimsical
\whim"si*cal\ (?), a. [from whimsey.]
1. full of, or characterized by, whims; actuated by a whim; having peculiar notions; queer; strange; freakish. "a whimsical insult." my neighbors call me whimsical.
2. odd or fantastic in appearance; quaintly devised; fantastic. "a whimsical chair."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WordNet 2.0

• whimsical


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adjective
1. determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason; "a capricious refusal"; "authoritarian rulers are frequently capricious"; "the victim of whimsical persecutions"
(synonym) capricious, impulsive
(similar) arbitrary)

Digression ends.
0 Replies
 
Lusatian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 03:16 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I hardly can compare with Joe's - and the latter, well, you just ignored his, so ...?

So I'll stay here whimsically suggesting and promulgating.


I haven't ignored Joe's experience, as vague as he outlined it, but internet rebuttal time is not as abundant as for some. If you must, by all means, continue the promulgating, and so forth, I just hoped that some would realize that some of these things affect us, my work and others at even more sensitive echelons, a great deal, and the peanut gallery clamor that pervades every step is together irritating, irrelevant, obstructing, distracting, detrimental, uninformed, indecisive, influenced, needlessly arguementative, contradictory, and oftentimes just plain stupid.

I imagine it would compare to my thoughts, expounded on at length, repeatedly, heatedly, and google/CNN-based, on the working standards and methods of the construction industry. I could go on and on about the best thickness of a sheet of plywood, the standard measurements of a house frame, the dimensions of a concrete foundation, but my arguements, bluster, and regurgitation would have about as much weight as most of the commentary on this site regarding intelligence/law enforcement matters, contributed by housewives, civil lawyers, technicians, librarians, retirees, postal employees, Greenpeace advocates, and coffeeshop patrons.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 03:20 am
Lol! Lusatian made a funny again.

Ungracious, higgerant - but funny.
0 Replies
 
Lusatian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 03:25 am
Glad you enjoyed it Dlowan.

My mother used to say, to be able to laugh at oneself is a high point of one's character.

(P.S. Out of curiosity, what in the world does "higgerant" mean? And, is it in your dictionary? And if in your dictionary, does the title end with "-isms" on the cover?)
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 03:46 am
Nah, possum darls.

It be cockney.

You know - drop the aitches where they did oughta be - and pop 'em in where they didn't.

Loike the glottal stop an' such.

I do love to laugh at myself.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 03:48 am
You know - like

In 'ertford 'ereford and 'aversham 'urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2005 05:36 am
Lusation - back to the article I posted before, if it can happen once and the government denies it over and over until pushed in Congressional hearings, it can certainly (and likely has) happen again.

Perhaps next time it will be you!
0 Replies
 
 

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