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The Courts, the Constitution and the Federalist papers

 
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 02:46 pm
That's fascinating. If those clauses become law it will be absolutely fascinating to watch.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 03:30 pm
goodfielder,

The first clause I quoted seems to be aimed at preventing the Supreme Court from making decisions on separation of church and state cases (such as removing "under God" in the pledge or a government building having a ten commandments monument):

"Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an entity of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer or agent of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official or personal capacity), concerning that entity's, officer's, or agent's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government."
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goodfielder
 
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Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 03:42 pm
Like any legislation, it goes as far as it can until the courts define its limits.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 11:30 am
This clause of the proposed "Constitutional Restoration Act" would forbid federal courts from citing examples of foreign legal decisions in their rationale:

"In interpreting and applying the Constitution of the United States, a court of the United States may not rely upon any constitution, law, administrative rule, Executive order, directive, policy, judicial decision, or any other action of any foreign state or international organization or agency, other than English constitutional and common law up to the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States."
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 11:38 am
Finally, this clause of the proposed act would allow impeachment of federal judges for exceeding jurisdictional limitations imposed on them by Congress:

"To the extent that a justice of the Supreme Court of the United States or any judge of any Federal court engages in any activity that exceeds the jurisdiction of the court of that justice or judge, as the case may be, by reason of section 1260 or 1370 of title 28, United States Code, as added by this Act, engaging in that activity shall be deemed to constitute the commission of--
(1) an offense for which the judge may be removed upon impeachment and conviction; and
(2) a breach of the standard of good behavior required by article III, section 1 of the Constitution."
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 12:28 pm
Wandeljw
wandeljw wrote:
Finally, this clause of the proposed act would allow impeachment of federal judges for exceeding jurisdictional limitations imposed on them by Congress:

"To the extent that a justice of the Supreme Court of the United States or any judge of any Federal court engages in any activity that exceeds the jurisdiction of the court of that justice or judge, as the case may be, by reason of section 1260 or 1370 of title 28, United States Code, as added by this Act, engaging in that activity shall be deemed to constitute the commission of--
(1) an offense for which the judge may be removed upon impeachment and conviction; and
(2) a breach of the standard of good behavior required by article III, section 1 of the Constitution."


I think this provision would be declared unconstitutional as a violation of the authority of the separation and equal powers of the three branches of government. This would give the congress a superior status over the judiciary.

BBB
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 12:33 pm
According to the Federalist papers though, it was always intended that the judiciary be the weakest division of government. And yes it must be or else we are in the danger of appointing a dictator subject to no law every time a judge is appointed to a lifetime position.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 12:37 pm
Foxfyre
Foxfyre wrote:
According to the Federalist papers though, it was always intended that the judiciary be the weakest division of government. And yes it must be or else we are in the danger of appointing a dictator subject to no law every time a judge is appointed to a lifetime position.


Foxfyre, the federalist papers are not part of the the constitution. Do you really think that the founding fathers, as smart as they were, would have failed to provide for a "weaker judiciary" in the constitution if that was their goal?

You also didn't site your specific source in the federalist papers so you can make any claim you wish with such an unsubstantiated statement, a statement that is overstated and not rational.

BBB
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 12:42 pm
Um BBB, please recheck the title of this thread and the thesis Parados started with. The discussion was intended to include the original intent of the Founders as well as the actual content of the Constitution. I am trying to stay with that theme. There are a limited number of Federalist papers specifically targeted at the judiciary and these have been cited numerous times already in this thread by me and others, including underscoring the specific issue here.
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wandeljw
 
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Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 01:18 pm
I would like to hear parados' view of the proposed act. What is going on in Congress is a reflection of the issue parados brought up in this thread.
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parados
 
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Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 05:20 pm
wandel,

Thanks for thinking of me. I am a little busy the next couple of weeks or so. I find enough time to stop in and read a little bit but not enough to write long disertations on what you guys are talking about. Once my schedule clears up a little bit I will be back for sure. Keep up the good work without me.


Fox,
The intent of the founders wasn't for the courts to be weak. They just recognized that they were. They fully intended the courts to be an equal branch but saw the limitations of what they created.

BBB -Fox is quoting from Federalist 78. Lots of different sites have them. Google it or look it up from my post on I think the second page. I think she is misunderstanding what they meant. I don't have time to back it up right now.

I agree though, any legislation that attempted to restrict what the courts could rule on would be unconstitutional. It would make for a horrible constitutional crisis. One can only hope that if it does pass the people will recognize how much of a threat that is to our system and vote the people out that passed it.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 05:33 pm
Just a slight tangent. Does anyone know the reasoning behind the proposal to restrict federal courts from referring to anything other than domestic law? I don't want to disrupt this thread so some information rather than full-on debate would be useful.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 05:38 pm
I think the rationale Goodfielder is that some judges have been citing European et al judicial rulings as the basis for their own. Some Americans take strong exception to that and think it inappropriate for judges to be using anything as a basis for ruling other than American law.

Parados, I don't think I am misinterpreting Federal 78 at all. I think Madison clearly understood the mischief a rogue judge could make if s/he decided to take on the constitutionally mandated legislative function. But I'll wait until you're less busy to discuss that further.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 05:51 pm
Thanks fox I shall leave it at that.
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parados
 
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Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:11 pm
Just got home and winding down. Will try to answer some here.

These are direct quotes from Fed 78 with my explanation of what I think it means.

Fed 78 says:
Quote:
Whoever attentively considers the different departments of power must perceive, that, in a government in which they are separated from each other, the judiciary, from the nature of its functions, will always be the least dangerous to the political rights of the Constitution; because it will be least in a capacity to annoy or injure them. The Executive not only dispenses the honors, but holds the sword of the community. The legislature not only commands the purse, but prescribes the rules by which the duties and rights of every citizen are to be regulated. The judiciary, on the contrary, has no influence over either the sword or the purse; no direction either of the strength or of the wealth of the society; and can take no active resolution whatever. It may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment; and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments.
The judiciary is the weakest because it controls neither the army or the treasury.. It can only judge, it can't enforce its rulings so it is weaker than the other two branches. There is no deliberate intent in this statement to make it so. It is merely a statement of fact.


Quote:
This simple view of the matter suggests several important consequences. It proves incontestably, that the judiciary is beyond comparison the weakest of the three departments of power1; that it can never attack with success either of the other two; and that all possible care is requisite to enable it to defend itself against their attacks. It equally proves, that though individual oppression may now and then proceed from the courts of justice, the general liberty of the people can never be endangered from that quarter; I mean so long as the judiciary remains truly distinct from both the legislature and the Executive. For I agree, that "there is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers."2 And it proves, in the last place, that as liberty can have nothing to fear from the judiciary alone, but would have every thing to fear from its union with either of the other departments; that as all the effects of such a union must ensue from a dependence of the former on the latter, notwithstanding a nominal and apparent separation; that as, from the natural feebleness of the judiciary, it is in continual jeopardy of being overpowered, awed, or influenced by its co-ordinate branches; and that as nothing can contribute so much to its firmness and independence as permanency in office, this quality may therefore be justly regarded as an indispensable ingredient in its constitution, and, in a great measure, as the citadel of the public justice and the public security.
The statement in bold is the most important one here. The judiciary is weak so it requires constant vigilance to protect it from just such an attack as is proposed by some in the attempt to restrict what judges can rule on. Note that Fed 78 argues that the judiciary can not endanger the general liberty even though it might do so in rare cases. Again it argues that the judiciary is in danger of being overpowered by the other branches, something we need to guard against.

Quote:
The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority; such, for instance, as that it shall pass no bills of attainder, no ex post facto laws, and the like. Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing.
This paragraph argues very strongly against any attempt to limit judges and what they can rule on. Without a court system that is indpendent and able to rule the way it thinks the law is then we no longer have a Constitutional government.

Quote:
Some perplexity respecting the rights of the courts to pronounce legislative acts void, because contrary to the Constitution, has arisen from an imagination that the doctrine would imply a superiority of the judiciary to the legislative power. It is urged that the authority which can declare the acts of another void, must necessarily be superior to the one whose acts may be declared void. As this doctrine is of great importance in all the American constitutions, a brief discussion of the ground on which it rests cannot be unacceptable.

There is no position which depends on clearer principles, than that every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.
A discussion of why the Courts can and MUST be able to rule acts of the legislature as unconstitutional. And why the courts are not superior because they can do this. The courts MUST be able to do it otherwise the legislature is not bound by the constitution at all.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:27 pm
I find it rather humorous (but downright scary) that people who claim they are strict constructionists when it comes to the constitution would attempt to pass a law that so clearly violates the constitution.
The Constitution says ....
Quote:
Section 2.


The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.


Did "all" mean something different in 1791 than it does today? Certainly if you are a "STRICT constructionist" then you must follow the exact meaning of the word "all"

When a law would state ...
Quote:
"Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an entity of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer or agent of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official or personal capacity), concerning that entity's, officer's, or agent's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government."


Can anyone seriously defend this as constitutional since the courts get to rule on ALL cases. How can they be prevented from ruling on some cases if the constitution says they get to rule on ALL?

If someone files a suit based on the constitution there is no way the legislature can prevent the courts from ruling on that case nor can they force the courts to rule a certain way without endangering our republic. (See my previous post.)
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:28 pm
Parados
Parados, thank you. Your post confirms my understanding of the Federalist Papers and why any attempt to limit the judiciary as proposed would be unconstitutional.

BBB
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
Parados, I don't think I am misinterpreting Federal 78 at all. I think Madison clearly understood the mischief a rogue judge could make if s/he decided to take on the constitutionally mandated legislative function. But I'll wait until you're less busy to discuss that further.

Fed 78
Quote:
This simple view of the matter suggests several important consequences. It proves incontestably, that the judiciary is beyond comparison the weakest of the three departments of power1; that it can never attack with success either of the other two; and that all possible care is requisite to enable it to defend itself against their attacks. It equally proves, that though individual oppression may now and then proceed from the courts of justice, the general liberty of the people can never be endangered from that quarter; I mean so long as the judiciary remains truly distinct from both the legislature and the Executive. For I agree, that "there is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers."2 And it proves, in the last place, that as liberty can have nothing to fear from the judiciary alone, but would have every thing to fear from its union with either of the other departments; that as all the effects of such a union must ensue from a dependence of the former on the latter, notwithstanding a nominal and apparent separation; that as, from the natural feebleness of the judiciary, it is in continual jeopardy of being overpowered, awed, or influenced by its co-ordinate branches; and that as nothing can contribute so much to its firmness and independence as permanency in office, this quality may therefore be justly regarded as an indispensable ingredient in its constitution, and, in a great measure, as the citadel of the public justice and the public security.


In Fed 78 Hamilton says there are 3 things PROVED about the judiciary.
1. They can't attack the other branches successfully.
2. The courts can't generally endanger the liberty of people even though they might occassionally oppress some.
3. Liberty has nothing to fear from the courts.

"rogue judges" really have no place in this argument since the appeals process is in place to deal with such instances. If the majority of the USSC rules a certain way it is hardly a "rogue judge." And the people have a way to rectify any such ruling by amending the constitution if they are not happy with a ruling.
From Fed 78 again...
Quote:
This independence of the judges is equally requisite to guard the Constitution and the rights of individuals from the effects of those ill humors, which the arts of designing men, or the influence of particular conjunctures, sometimes disseminate among the people themselves, and which, though they speedily give place to better information, and more deliberate reflection, have a tendency, in the meantime, to occasion dangerous innovations in the government, and serious oppressions of the minor party in the community. Though I trust the friends of the proposed Constitution will never concur with its enemies,3 in questioning that fundamental principle of republican government, which admits the right of the people to alter or abolish the established Constitution, whenever they find it inconsistent with their happiness, yet it is not to be inferred from this principle, that the representatives of the people, whenever a momentary inclination happens to lay hold of a majority of their constituents, incompatible with the provisions in the existing Constitution, would, on that account, be justifiable in a violation of those provisions; or that the courts would be under a greater obligation to connive at infractions in this shape, than when they had proceeded wholly from the cabals of the representative body. Until the people have, by some solemn and authoritative act, annulled or changed the established form, it is binding upon themselves collectively, as well as individually; and no presumption, or even knowledge, of their sentiments, can warrant their representatives in a departure from it, prior to such an act. But it is easy to see, that it would require an uncommon portion of fortitude in the judges to do their duty as faithful guardians of the Constitution, where legislative invasions of it had been instigated by the major voice of the community.

We can only hope that judges continue to do their DUTY as required by the constitution in spite of all the attacks by some in the legislature on them.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 11:05 am
Federalist 79 continues Hamilton's explanation of how the Constitution deals with the federal judiciary. Hamilton seems to say that the impeachment of federal judges should be protected from political whim:

Quote:
The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other. This is the only provision on the point which is consistent with the necessary independence of the judicial character, and is the only one which we find in our own Constitution in respect to our own judges. The want of a provision for removing the judges on account of inability has been a subject of complaint. But all considerate men will be sensible that such a provision would either not be practiced upon or would be more liable to abuse than calculated to answer any good purpose. The mensuration of the faculties of the mind has, I believe, no place in the catalogue of known arts. An attempt to fix the boundary between the regions of ability and inability, would much oftener give scope to personal and party attachments and enmities than advance the interests of justice or the public good.


Would Hamilton approve of the grounds for impeachment described in the proposed "Constitution Restoration Act"?

Quote:
To the extent that a justice of the Supreme Court of the United States or any judge of any Federal court engages in any activity that exceeds the jurisdiction of the court of that justice or judge, as the case may be, by reason of section 1260 or 1370 of title 28, United States Code, as added by this Act, engaging in that activity shall be deemed to constitute the commission of--
(1) an offense for which the judge may be removed upon impeachment and conviction; and
(2) a breach of the standard of good behavior required by article III, section 1 of the Constitution.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:58 am
I don't know Wandel. I'm pretty sure it never occured to Hamilton that judges would be looking to European courts using European law as a basis for their own rulings. Some of us find that at least incongruous and judicial activism at best and wrong and dangerous at worst and strongly disapprove of the practice. Given the propensity of some judges to create law that coincides with their person ideology and the possibility of really bad rogue judges, I would like to know that judges are not given godlike stature, that judges cannot make law with impunity, and that bad jurisprudence has no repercussions.

The process of impeachment is lengthy, painful, and blessedly rare. But given the current climate and how I believe Hamilton viewed the courts, I think he would approve of our putting into place the means to remove a rogue judge from office at such time as that might be necessary. The current law makes that extremely difficult if not impossible to do.

Hamilton and the other Founders were aware that the Constitution and the entire system would prevail only when administered by men of good reputation, solid moral integrity, and good common sense. I think they might not have envisioned an America so diverse in ideology and values as we have now.
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