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The Courts, the Constitution and the Federalist papers

 
 
parados
 
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 10:56 am
This thread is to consider some issues raised about the role of the courts in the US and how it is laid out in documents listed above. It started with a discussion Foxfyre and I had in another thread that I will move over here.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 11,258 • Replies: 197
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:12 am
Panzade settles into his seat with his Mars bar , a #2 pencil and a pad of paper
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:14 am
A quick run down of the conversation so far.

Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
I thnk I have a pretty good background in the federalist papers and it is on those very papers that has been a heavy influence on the opinions I hold re the courts, their powrs, their responsibilities, as well as that of Congress and the Executive branch. So what do you base your opinions on?

And could you please cite the article or amendment of the Constitution that creates the federal court system other than the Supreme Court?


Parados wrote:
Quote:
Fox
Quote:
:

Art 3
Section 1.


The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.





Constitution creates the court system including lower (inferior) courts. Congress gets to create the exact lower courts later which it did in creating district and circuit courts. It continues to change the lower courts as needed to deal with work load etc.

Quote:


Section 2.


The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority

In Section 2 the power of the courts is defined. The SAME power goes to all inferior courts as well as to the Supreme court. Note the use of "The Judicial Power" in the first and send clauses. "Judicial Power" includes all inferior courts later set up by Congress.


Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
Thank you. And as you see, Congress establishes the 'inferior Coursts' and such courts and Article I also states that it shall be Congress charged

Quote:
:
Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.



It is the prerogative of Congress, not the Executive branch and not the judicial branch of government, to make laws and it is the responsibility of the Executive branch and the judicial branch to stay within the parameters of the laws passed by Congress. Activist judges go beyond and expand the letter and intent of the law and this is a practice I think everybody should continue to speak out against and condemn. In no place in the Constitution is the judicial branch given authority to make new law.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:16 am
He searches for a sign that professor Foxfyre , the conservative advocate has arrived...shhh...there she is now.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:24 am
LOL indeed I am and bookmarking until I figure out what ammunition to load into the magazine. Smile
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:27 am
blue veinedthrobber stands at the corner of the battlefield fully prepeared with contraband items and professional girls, at the ready to sell blackmarket supplies to both sides in the shadows.

Not to mention bribes in hand for the contracts for the rebuilding when the chaos is over.

War and conflict, gotta love it.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:33 am
<slipping into a chair in the back row>
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:56 am
The courts aren't given the power to make law, but they are given the power to rule on law and and fact. When the court rules that a law is not constitutional it is not making law. It is doing precisely what it was designed to do. When the court says that the legislature doesn't have the power to make a law again it is doing what the court was designed to do.

Quote:
Art 3
Section 2.

The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.


The courts rule on laws and the constitution. The constitution trumps any laws. Meaning in the constitution is decided by the courts since they have the appellate Jurisdiction. The courts can be overruled by changing the constitution but that is the only way, the check on the courts.

The problem Fox is that the courts rulings aren't always clear to everyone else because we all have our own bias. It becomes easy to claim they are 'activist' when in reality they are doing precisely what the constitution says they are to do.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:05 pm
Okay that's a good point to start, but I have appointments today and won't have time to play here until later. When are you leaving Parados and when will you be back?
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:08 pm
a quick amendment to my earlier statement about overruling the courts...

The Supreme court can be convinced to reverse a ruling from an earlier Supreme court but it is rare. It becomes rarer when the ruling has been used as a basis for a lot of other rulings.



Enough already, I have to pack and catch a plane to Mexico. Then I have a busy month of work when I get back. So you people in the back, I hope you brought lunch for several days.......
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:39 pm
Class Discussion:

The Constitution and "The Federalist Papers" are not the only definers of what U.S. Courts are supposed to do. Are they?

An old common law tradition gives courts a role in making law ("stare decisis"). Previous court decisions create legal principles which are relied on by judges in future decisions.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:43 pm
Checking back in just before leaving the building for a bit. The thread was started to discuss the original intent (via those who influenced the writing of the Constitution) for the judiciary and an exploration of what the function of the judiciary properly is. No doubt the discussion will expand into examples of where the process of the modern judiciary is correct and where it is in error along with impressions of what judicial activism is or isn't.

At least that is where I think we are. Parados may have a different thought and I will defer to his preferences and expectations for the thread.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:48 pm
Stare decisis is the doctrine of precident: When an issue has been before a court in the past, and a ruling exists on an issue, the courts will, as a general rule, abide by that prior ruling. This is not the same as "making law."
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:55 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Stare decisis is the doctrine of precident: When an issue has been before a court in the past, and a ruling exists on an issue, the courts will, as a general rule, abide by that prior ruling. This is not the same as "making law."


Not exactly the same way legislatures make law, but courts are in a sense "making law" when the precedent is heavily relied upon in deciding future cases.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 07:56 pm
I find myself with a little bit of time while packing to make another foray into the world of the courts. I feel like a teacher giving handouts and reading assignments for the class to peruse during spring break. When I get back, I hope to start this discussion with talking about the judiciary as defined in the Federalist papers. The papers can be found several places on the web. This is a nice table of contents that lists titles. http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa00.htm

This is from Federalist 78 and should relate nicely to Tom Delay's recent statement about making the judge's pay for what they did to Terri Schiavo. (If someone wants to find and post Delay's comments that would be helpful.)

From Fed 78
Quote:
According to the plan of the convention, all judges who may be appointed by the United States are to hold their offices during good behavior; which is conformable to the most approved of the State constitutions and among the rest, to that of this State. Its propriety having been drawn into question by the adversaries of that plan, is no light symptom of the rage for objection, which disorders their imaginations and judgments. The standard of good behavior for the continuance in office of the judicial magistracy, is certainly one of the most valuable of the modern improvements in the practice of government. In a monarchy it is an excellent barrier to the despotism of the prince; in a republic it is a no less excellent barrier to the encroachments and oppressions of the representative body. And it is the best expedient which can be devised in any government, to secure a steady, upright, and impartial administration of the laws.
Is Delay's threat to the judiciary an attempt to encroach upon or oppress them?


Also from 78
Quote:
If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their will to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, the intention of the people to the intention of their agents.

Nor does this conclusion by any means suppose a superiority of the judicial to the legislative power. It only supposes that the power of the people is superior to both; and that where the will of the legislature, declared in its statutes, stands in opposition to that of the people, declared in the Constitution, the judges ought to be governed by the latter rather than the former.

I find this passage interesting in light of the conversation Foxfyre and I had about the role of judges. It appears that the founders intended that the courts should protect we the people from an over reaching legislature. Foxfyre thought the present rulings by the judges made them superior to the legislature. I would point out that this passage would show they they were not but were rather preventing the legislature from making themselves superior to the people by violating the constitution.

Hopefully that will generate a little discussion while I am gone. When I get back we will discuss the strength of the judiciary as a branch of govt and how it is protected from interference.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 08:00 pm
Tico,

Thanks for giving us the proper term of "stare decisis." I knew you were sitting at the back of the room for a reason. ;-)
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Aphrodisia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 09:48 pm
This discussion is great; I have a Con Law 1 exam in about a week and a half and this thread has covered the past 14 weeks of class for me! Smile
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:36 pm
I think in Federalist 78, Alexander Hamilton was trying to address the concern that the Constitution makes the judiciary superior to the legislature. As parados points out, this is not the case. Rather, the judiciary is an intermediary between legislators and their constituents to make sure that the will of the people prevails.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 07:52 pm
Federalist 79 addresses another concern people had about the Constitution: that there is no provision for removal of a judge on account of "inability". Hamilton argues: "An attempt to fix the boundary between the regions of ability and inability would much oftener give scope to personal and party attachments and enmities than advance the interests of justice or the public good."
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 11:24 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Stare decisis is the doctrine of precident: When an issue has been before a court in the past, and a ruling exists on an issue, the courts will, as a general rule, abide by that prior ruling. This is not the same as "making law."


Not exactly the same way legislatures make law, but courts are in a sense "making law" when the precedent is heavily relied upon in deciding future cases.


In common law jurisdictions the courts have two choices when faced with a precedent. They can follow or "distinguish". If they follow then it means that the court has decided that on the facts before it the similarities are such that they must decide in the manner the precedent has determined. If the facts are so different as to be highly unlke the facts of the alleged precedent then the court can distinguish, that is, refuse to follow and can - exercising proper judicial reasoning - give a different ruling.

In a sense then common law courts can make new law but only in a very restricted manner and only from what actually exists. Only the legislature can come up with a brand new piece of legislation. And of course the legislature always has the right to test the water by introducing legislation which counters or in some way overcomes any legal creation by the courts.

I shall follow the discussion on the Federalist Papers and the Constitution with interest. I have always sniffed in the past at objections to a written Constitution by those in my country who object to a written Bill of Rights. I have usuallly opposed one of their arguments which has been that a written Constitution becomes ossified and overborne with the scar tissue of amendment after amendment. It will be interesting to read if the references to the Federalist Papers supports that argument by the opponents of a written Bill of Rights.
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