114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 01:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

They need to leave the Euro and produce their own currency. They need to have a government that understands fiscal management and responsibility.

Otherwise, there's no other option.


You haven't answered the question. Who will lend them the hard currency to keep on spending?

I agree leaving the Euro and reestablishing their own currency would give them a lot of politicval flexibility. M<arket forces would immediately drive the value of all Greek property and services down, lowering the standatd of living for all but instantly making them more competitive - if they have the will and fortitude left for competition.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 01:05 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Cyclo merely stomped his foot (figurtively) and, in his usual manner, insisted that he is right and that the Greeks are different. Unfortunately he didn't specify in what way they are different or that the cultural problems that resulted were unconnected to the deficit spending and handouts provided by a reckless government


The cultural difference is a wide-spread and well accepted tradition of tax fraud.

You do quite a bit of foot-stomping yourself, yaknow Laughing

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 01:11 pm
@georgeob1,
Why would they need "hard currency" if they produce their own currency if it has value inside their own country?

Most developed countries are running deficits, and their currencies value changes in the world currency market. With their own currency, their exchange rates will be very low, but that's the price they will pay for not improving their own economy.

However, along with their own currency, they must ensure good fiscal management to turn around their economy. Otherwise, it'll only be a temporary fix.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 01:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Cyclo merely stomped his foot (figurtively) and, in his usual manner, insisted that he is right and that the Greeks are different. Unfortunately he didn't specify in what way they are different or that the cultural problems that resulted were unconnected to the deficit spending and handouts provided by a reckless government


The cultural difference is a wide-spread and well accepted tradition of tax fraud.

You do quite a bit of foot-stomping yourself, yaknow Laughing

Cycloptichorn


I do indeed ! That's what makes me so good at detecting yours.: Very Happy

I agree with you about the widespread venality in Greek tax collections, but in fact it goes much farther than that - to an overregulated labor market, and corrupt government operations, business practices and labor unions. All of these things are like mushrooms that grow in the darkness of a regulated economy that protects politically favored interests. Free markets sweep this stuff away, but it sometimes takes a new generation to make the needed change. Four decades of socialism turned even the Germans of the GDR into passive parasites.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 01:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Why would they need "hard currency" if they produce their own currency if it has value inside their own country?

Most developed countries are running deficits, and their currencies value changes in the world currency market. With their own currency, their exchange rates will be very low, but that's the price they will pay for not improving their own economy.

However, along with their own currency, they must ensure good fiscal management to turn around their economy. Otherwise, it'll only be a temporary fix.


The Greeks need someone else's wealth to sustain a lifestyle they didn't produce enough to earn. Whether that comes in the form of a hard or soft currency is, strictly speaking, immaterial. However it would have to be someone else's money, and that comes in the form of much harder currencies than would be a restored Greek Drachma.

The whole western world is watching the ongoing crumbling of the deficit financing model on which it has relied for the past few decades. Why are you so persistently blind to that obvious fact?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 02:18 pm
@georgeob1,
If they produce their own currency, and declare it legal tender, why would they need outside assurance for it?

Cuba uses two forms of currency; one for citizens (not available outside of Cuba), and the other for visitors.

Quote:
FAQ’s about Cuba’s Dual Currency System:

April 18, 2008


What is a “dual currency” system?

A dual currency system is an economy that accepts two different currencies as legal tender. Cuba uses two forms of currency: the Cuban convertible peso (CUC) and the Cuban peso (CUP). The U.S. dollar was also legal tender from 1993 to 2004.

How much is each Cuban currency worth?

The convertible peso is worth 1.08 USD, but there is a 10 percent fee for exchanging dollars for pesos. The Cuban peso is worth 0.04 convertible pesos (1/24 of a convertible peso), or 0.05 USD. Neither currency is traded in international markets.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 02:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From Encyclopedia of the Nations.

Quote:
After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, Cuba was soon trading with a number of countries, including Spain, France, Italy, Mexico, Canada, Russia, the Netherlands, and Venezuela. About 40 percent of Cuba's trade is within the Americas and 50 percent is with Europe. Main imports include fuel, food, semi-finished goods, wheat, vegetables, machinery, feed, and corn. Main exports are sugar, fish, nickel, medicinal products, and fruit.

Read more: Cuba International trade, Information about International trade in Cuba http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Cuba-INTERNATIONAL-TRADE.html#ixzz1t5O7TSGU


One of Cuba's main export is tobacco/cigars. I see Cohiba's (cigar) at most international countries and at airports. Cohiba's (the ones I smoke) cost upwards of US$22/each, but I can get them in Cuba for about $8/each. I don't otherwise smoke. I even saw Cohiba's in Athens, Greece, near the Plaka when I was there about two weeks ago. Their prices were about $26/each. The tobacco shop clerk admitted they were not selling well.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 05:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

If they produce their own currency, and declare it legal tender, why would they need outside assurance for it?

Cuba uses two forms of currency; one for citizens (not available outside of Cuba), and the other for visitors.


Cuba and Greece are alike in that they don't produce enough to be able to either subsidize the lives of their people or to buy stuff from other countries.

If there is no (or insufficient ) external demand for what Greece & Cuba produce they won't be able to earn enough foreign cash to buy the stuff they may want. Nothing they might do to manipuilate the domestic value of thir currencies can alter any of that.

Greece may well end up leaving (or being kicked out of) the Eurozone as you suggest. That will certainly restore their ability to devalue (or more accurately) let the free market devalue their currency. That will simply reduce the buying power of Greeks for foreign goods, though it may facilitate some needed domestic economic restructuring, getting people to do more with less. However, it won't directly help Greece pay off its foreign debts which are denominated in hard foreign currencies, or to pay for imported goods they may want. To restore their wealth the Greeks will have to produce more of it themselves. There's no evading that.

By the same token Cuba would still be poor even without the U.S. embargo. The reason is they don't produce much of what other people want. Worse their idiotic social, economic & political systems suppress the individual initiative to produce anything, leaving their unfortunate people with a secure but tawdry poverty as meagre payment for the loss of their freedom.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 07:45 pm
@georgeob1,
You wrote,
Quote:
Greece may well end up leaving (or being kicked out of) the Eurozone as you suggest. That will certainly restore their ability to devalue (or more accurately) let the free market devalue their currency. That will simply reduce the buying power of Greeks for foreign goods, though it may facilitate some needed domestic economic restructuring, getting people to do more with less. However, it won't directly help Greece pay off its foreign debts which are denominated in hard foreign currencies, or to pay for imported goods they may want. To restore their wealth the Greeks will have to produce more of it themselves. There's no evading that.


Germans are already angry with spending billions on Greece, and that will certainly have an impact on how they will be forced to leave the Euro.

By leaving and Euro and creating their own currency, they will still be trading with other countries from the money they get from tourism, but it will be very limiting as to what they will be able to buy - and possibly pay on their debt. That their buying power will be reduced is a given.

The debt held by Greece will never be paid back 100%; most countries and investors holding onto Greece bonds will take a huge loss. I think they call it a haircut.

They will be forced to produce more themselves, because that's the only way they will survive.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2012 11:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
They will be forced to produce more themselves, because that's the only way they will survive.


Rubbish. They might live a simpler life.

Produce what? The country is not competitive from a production point of view and that was obvious before so much credit was extended to them by idiots who deserve all they get.

Although it might have been a politically acceptable method of burning money because we had too much and letting us have it would have driven us mad. Far larger debts than that of Greece have been written off before.

The increasing efficiency of production is a good thing only up to a certain point.
0 Replies
 
sumonht1990
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 05:02 am
@au1929,
The situation is not really good.What's the hell in there?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 05:25 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
The whole western world is watching the ongoing crumbling of the deficit financing model on which it has relied for the past few decades. Why are you so persistently blind to that obvious fact?

Maybe because it isn't a fact, let alone an obvious one. When you look at the pre-crisis deficits of all the original Euro-zone countries and look for a correlation with the countries being in trouble, this is what you get:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/02/25/opinion/022512krugman2/022512krugman2-blog480.jpg

(Data source: International Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook database.)

As correlations go, this one isn't just weak, it's morbidly anemic. Between the introduction of the Euro and the onset of the crisis, two of the five crisis-countries, Ireland and Spain, haven't been running deficts at all, they've been running budget surpluses! Portugal's deficit was about average at a nonthreatening 1.2%. Only Italy's and Greece's have been above-average. And even Greece --- this one surprised even me --- ran a lower deficit than Slovakia, which is not in trouble.

You confidently state as an "obvious fact" that deficit spending caused the Euro crisis. But the empirical support for this is nowhere even close to statistical significance. What you are peddling here is prejudice, not fact.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 10:04 am
@Thomas,
Thomas,

I think you have selectively narrowed the question to suit your own prejudices here. The loss of confidence of potential lenders (or Bond buyers) for a nation's public debt is a phenomenon the world has observed numerous times in the last century. I don't know of any precise economic model able to reliably predict the occurrence of such a loss of confidence, but note that the event usually surprised all or most of the knowledgable observers at the time it occurred, but was usually treated as a predictable event by self-appointed savants - after the fact.

Such a loss of confidence occurs when potential lenders lose confidence that their loans will be repaid or that their bonds will retain their value. There are several financial indicators involved here, including total debt as a % of GDP; expectations for continued GDP growth or decline; current budget surplus or deficits; and expectations for future government actions to add to or reduce the deficit. There are others as well, but they all involve the quality of the expectations that the bonds will hold their value.

There are as well a host of other factors that, in the short run, influence expectations for the timing of a crisis in the case of countries that, owing to the presence of a dangerous combination of the above indicators, are seen as vulnerable. I don't think there is much sound theory for this aspect of the problem, and am instead focused on the above factors influencing long-term stability or instability and the confidence of lenders.

You have reduced all of this fairly obvious and elementary stuff to the value of the current year operating deficit of a government in need of loans. That you have found poor correlation is no surprise and no victory for any point under discussion here.

Ireland's crisis occurred, despite a relative low level of government debt as a % of GDP, because the government intervened to guarantee the then poorly quantified liabilities of its banks in the wake of the still unfolding collapse of a housing bubble. This led to suddenly high government deficits amidst fast dropping expectations for GDP growth. The country still retains significant economic advantages in terms of a skilled population, and favorable labor market, tax and regulatory conditions for the establishment of new enterprises. If it can get through the next critical few years of austerity while it deals with the effects of the bank guarantee, its prospects for future growth are very good.

Greece is the antithesis in that its crisis was the result of an extended period of high deficits and high debt relative to GDP; a sclerotic over regulated, over subsidized economy with low expectations for sustained growth; and a succession of governments that pandered favors to its constituents paid with public debt often sustained with deceptive financial reporting to both lenders and EU regulators. The population appears still addicted to the illusory "social welfare" spending of former governments and unwilling to face the changes that are clearly required. Its recovery is both distant and uncertain.

My argument was that chronic government deficits; high levels of public debt relative to GDP, combined with excessive labor market regulation and productivity destroying social welfare spending, which can lower GDP growth, are a reliable formula for the creation of conditions leading to the loss of lender confidence and an ensuing financial collapse. The major Eurozsone states provide us with several prominent examples of this combination today. The still unfolding drama of the political reactions to the situation and the competing viewpoints attending it provide a fascinating confirmation as well.

Sadly our present government appears to be determined to mimic the descent of the Eurozone states into a similar morass.

I think you understood all this and my viewpoint perfectly well, and merely indulged in a cheap "gotcha" game with a trivial model of your own creation.





spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 05:08 pm
Does Mr Obama really think that knocking Euro leader's heads together will solve the debt crisis?

If Euro leaders thought that would work they would be tupping each other like buffaloes do in the mating season.

I presume he thinks that a college educated chattering class will believe anything.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 05:10 pm
@georgeob1,
I think, George, that we are in uncharted territory. It would be nice to think I am mistaken.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 05:53 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:


I presume he thinks that a college educated chattering class will believe anything.

Recent history indicates that he is correct. Bad education leads to gullibility....
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 06:23 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
You have reduced all of this fairly obvious and elementary stuff to the value of the current year operating deficit of a government in need of loans.

Not the current-year deficit, the 1999-2007 average deficit.

georgeo1 wrote:
That you have found poor correlation is no surprise and no victory for any point under discussion here.

You should be surprised though. You can't have deficit spending cause a crisis where there has been no deficit in the first place. And in the case of Ireland and Spain, there has been no deficit in the first place. Your claim, remember, was not that there are many reasons for the crisis and that deficit spending was maybe one of them. It was: "The whole western world is watching the ongoing crumbling of the deficit financing model on which it has relied for the past few decades. Why are you so persistently blind to that obvious fact? " If you're that confident about it, the phenomenon better show up in a simple regression.

By back-pedaling now and saying that things are much more complicated, you're coming closer to the truth. But the punch of your snappy, earlier statement is gone, and good riddance to it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 06:54 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
My argument was that chronic government deficits; high levels of public debt relative to GDP, combined with excessive labor market regulation and productivity destroying social welfare spending, which can lower GDP growth, are a reliable formula for the creation of conditions leading to the loss of lender confidence and an ensuing financial collapse.

None of this other stuff show shows up in a correlation, either. We already dealt with government deficits. Now, the debt. I don't have a chart of comparative 2007 levels ready to hand, but Wikipedia has a table, and it shows a similarly inconclusive pattern. Greece and Italy are doing pretty good, but Spain and Ireland doing exemplary, Portugal doing okay but not great. And they're all in trouble. So again, no correlation.

As for social spending, well, lots of European countries have more generous welfare states than the crisis countries, and they're all doing fine. Again, no correlation that would support your claim. But judge for yourself.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/02/25/opinion/022512krugman1/022512krugman1-blog480.jpg

(Data source, again: International Monetary Fund: World Economic Outlook database)

Okay, let me ask you this: What empirical evidence would it take to make you admit that your storyline is wrong? If any?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 10:09 pm
@georgeob1,
What has actually happened with the world's worsening economy is the higher demand for US bonds. Most investors understand that the US economy is more stable, and more secure. Manufacturing and home sales are improving which indicates that the US economy is doing better.

As seen in Europe, austerity programs are only worsening their economy; it's not the best solution.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 10:26 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
As for social spending, well, lots of European countries have more generous welfare states than the crisis countries, and they're all doing fine. Again, no correlation that would support your claim. But judge for yourself.


Do these figures include the costs of all of the unneeded government jobs in Greece, which have long tended to be effectively part of the Greek welfare state??
 

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