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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 07:12 pm
@georgeob1,
Both parties have made it a habit to pass out candy to the citizens that no one is willing to pay for, so Obama was following a long tradition...what gets me is that at the time a lot of good brains we sure that there was only going to be one bite at the stimulus apple, that it had to be our best shot....so Obama as we know wasted most of it on projects that he fancies but dont do much economically and handing out bags of candy to people who might or did vote for him, and paying a ransom to the corporate class.

There will be no second stimulus because our bankers will not allow it and because the majority of the people are still irate about the first "stimulus".
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 07:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your thesis about Obama's conservative governance seems ironic in the face of how the GOP has been treating their president.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2011 09:02 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
It appears to me that you are increasingly diverting the discussion along side routes that serve your biases more than they illuminate the topic to which you are responding.

More likely, you liked my biases and diversions better when they agreed with yours. This allegation, coming from you, must surely win the price for involuntary irony.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:59 pm
Since hawk has been remiss lately..

Gold hits $1900
Gold hits $1890
Gold hits $1880
Gold hits $1870
Gold hits $1860
Gold hits $1850
Gold hits $1840
Gold hits $1830

And today...
Gold hits $1820
Gold hits $1810
Gold hits $1800
Gold hits $1790
Gold hits $1780
Gold hits $1770

Gold bottoms out at $1763 today.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:18 pm
@parados,
parados, I see that most gold holders have not sold at the high peak of gold prices, and are now waiting again for it to go up. They lose on many points by holding gold; a. when the sales of gold becomes active, it will drop quicker than one can say "loss." b. gold has been good for our economy, because instead of higher cost of goods and services, gold sales have essentially shifted the use of cash into a metal without any intrinsic value. The holders of gold will sustain the control of inflation. c. with the world economy problems of lost jobs and homes, there is a certain balance of competitiveness between all developed countries. d. I'm not sure why the stock market and the price of gold are as high as they are. there's nothing in the foreseeable future that shows economic growth, ergo, no inflation.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:45 pm
Gold had dropped $160 from its high, but has now made half of that back by close of the markets for the week closing at $1827 according to Goldprice.org. Somebody is making some serious money here by buying on the dips.....I expect to be noting new records next week, as neither the debt crisis fundamentials nor the political system failures in America, the EU or Japan have improved over the last week, in fact both continue to deteriorate .
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:47 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Since hawk has been remiss lately
as was explained to you, I only record here new record highs as they pass the $10 mark...we are now at $1910. I dont think that I will be away for long.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
I just wonder how much in gold trades are being made at current prices?

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I just wonder how much in gold trades are being made at current prices?


I dont know volume....do you know how to find out? I dont think that there is any global recording system for volume, the trades do not need to happen on the markets do they?
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
During the 1980s recession (lasted about 7 years) we were all reading the doomsayer book. Most encouraged buying gold but, better, was platinum.

Was gold really $100/ounce then. That is what I remember. Sounds incredible.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:17 pm
@Pemerson,
Quote:
During the 1980s recession (lasted about 7 years) we were all reading the doomsayer book.
Which we got out of by using voodoo economics to juice the economy, we tried to grow our way out....all that did was lead to endless bubble making and bubble popping ( read mistakes in asset allocation) , and an incredible spread of wealth distribution in America which of course weakened the social glue of the society. we tried to gimmick our way out by running up the GDP with mirage wealth in the banks, markets and corporate balance sheets, we did not build anything of value. Look at our collapsing infrastructure, the 47 million americans on food stamps, the hopelessness that you now find in America, all this just a few years after the boom times ended.

We got swindled, and we know it, and the problem started with Reagan and his nutty economic ideas....with his misplaced faith in markets and the corporate class to do what is best for America if they were allowed to do anything they wanted with the wealth that they hold, and his failure to understand even the most basic of economic fundamentals. I recall hearing back then "experts" claim that America could grow its debt in perpetuity, and that they were widely believed....think about that for a second, what kind of mental disconnect from reality needs to take place before that can happen??
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:27 pm
One of the main claims that is repeated ad nauseum by our Conservative brethren here at A2K is that 'the stimulus failed.' In fact, it's one of the main lines of attack against Obama used by the right-wing in modern discourse.

But - is that a true statement? How does one evaluate the truth of that statement? Here's a great article that reviews many of the different studies which have attempted to answer those question; and concludes that the overwhelming majority of studies on the matter have found that the stimulus was effective at helping our economy; and several of them concluded, as Liberals have, that the main problem with the Stim bill is that it was far too small.

Quote:
Posted at 02:32 PM ET, 08/24/2011
Did the stimulus work? A review of the nine best studies on the subject

By Dylan Matthews

(MLADEN ANTONOV - AFP/GETTY IMAGES)

If you ask the Obama administration, economists are virtually united in thinking the 2009 stimulus package worked. “I’m absolutely convinced, and the vast majority of economists are convinced, that the steps we took in the Recovery Act saved millions of people their jobs or created a whole bunch of jobs,” Obama declared at a press conference last month. Or, to quote NEC chair Gene Sperling from an interview a few weeks ago, “There is no question that the evidence is showing that the type of things the president did to help state and local governments really mattered, were really helpful in pulling us from the brink of depression to a recovery.”

But the stimulus’ critics allege that this evidence isn’t reliable. The studies the administration is relying on depend on models that “substitute assumptions for identification,” Harvard economist Robert Barro writes today in the Wall Street Journal. “To figure out the economic effects of transfers one needs ‘experiments,’” Barro writes, “in which the government changes transfer in an unusual way—while other factors stay the same—but these events are rare.”

The truth is, both studies of the type Barro prefers, and studies using models, which he criticizes, have been conducted to determine the effect of the stimulus on employment and output. Of the nine studies I’ve found, six find that the stimulus had a significant, positive effect on employment and growth, and three find that the effect was either quite small or impossible to detect. Five studies use econometric ”experiments,” which attempt to, as Barro encourages, sort out the effect of the stimulus from other factors using empirical data. Four use modeling instead.

Each approach runs into its own set of problems. The econometric studies have to deal with what social scientists call “endogeneity”: that is, the variable whose effect we’re trying to determine (the stimulus) could itself be affected by what we’re trying to study its effect on (the state of the economy). In this specific case, this means that econometric studies sometimes have to correct for the fact that harder-hit areas tend to get more stimulus spending. This says nothing about the stimulus’ effectiveness, but it can confuse attempts to evaluate that effectiveness statistically.

All of these studies have their own methods of overcoming the endogeneity problem, some of which are more effective than others. Whichever corrections one uses, however, one cannot run a perfect experiment with messy, real-world data, which necessarily limits what these studies can say. Of the five econometric studies detailed here, three conclude the stimulus had a significant positive effect, and two conclude it did not have much of an effect at all.

The modeling studies use an equation or series of equations meant to model the economy to compare the results of a certain policy change (like the stimulus bill) against the results of a baseline in which the change was not enacted. This avoids the messiness of econometric evaluation, as it allows the creation of a ready, stimulus-less counterfactual with which one can compare the results of the stimulus bill. But it also doesn’t take into account the actual changes in employment and output that occurred after the stimulus was passed. Further, there is considerable disagreement within the economics profession about macroeconomic modeling, and for any of these studies, one could find economists who dispute the value of the model used. Of the four modeling studies, three conclude the stimulus had a significant positive effect, while one suggests it had a positive, but mild, effect.

One more technical thing to clear up before we delve into the studies. Many of these studies provide estimates of the “multiplier” of a particular kind of stimulus measure. The “multiplier” of a given program is the amount GDP is increased by one dollar of that type of spending. For example, one of the econometric studies estimates that the multiplier for the Medicaid aid to states included in the stimulus is 2. This means that for every dollar the stimulus spent on Medicaid, GDP increased by $2. Any positive multiplier indicates the program is stimulative, but the higher the multiplier, the more cost-effective the measure is.

Here are the nine studies, organized by the conclusion and method used. Click on each one to see my summary of the study, how it reached its conclusions, and potential problems with its approach.


You can find links to all the studies themselves, and further discussion, at the source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/did-the-stimulus-work-a-review-of-the-nine-best-studies-on-the-subject/2011/08/16/gIQAThbibJ_blog.html

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, I don't know how to find out that info on gold trades, but I was hoping someone would know.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, This is how I see the effect of the stim bill. A good portion of the stem bill was used for tax cuts and extension of unemployment benefits. Those who were affected by the tax cuts and received unemployment benefits spent their money, and by the principles of the circulation of money, we can assume a $1 spent will circulate through the economy that benefits the producers, transportation companies, and those who work in the retail industry.

Since there is no way to create a formula to include all the necessary variables that effects how money is spent helps the economy in many ways, all economists can do is create models that are simplified that includes the known variables.

What I'd like to see is the rational used by those economists who claim the stim bill had no effect? Didn't the billions spent by consumers from the tax cuts help those who produce, transfer, and sell those products?

My only argument is that the stim bill was too small. Our government can still help our economy by spending on public works projects to improve our infrastructure. The increased demand for consumer goods will feed on itself to create more jobs.
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
That may be so, Cyclop, but who, or what lending institution, or whatever, began giving housing loans, equity loans for cash, etc. to people who did not qualify, thus setting those buyers up for failure? Is it just too big to answer, does it involve just too, too many VIP's? Or, what is it? The lenders claim people came into the banks, etc., intimidating them to allow these people to purchase a home or improve their home?

Lenders should not have been intimidated!
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Our government can still help our economy by spending on public works projects to improve our infrastructure. The increased demand for consumer goods will feed on itself to create more jobs.


Quite true. Isn't Obama talking about that again?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:55 pm
@Pemerson,
It was greed, and those who participated in that scheme to give loans to unqualified buyers starts from those at the top to those who approved the credit to unqualified buyers. It also includes all those banks and financial institutions that created those derivatives without knowing its true value, and continuing to trade it at higher prices. All stems to greed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:57 pm
@Pemerson,
Obama is talking about providing refinancing to homeowners to prop up the values that would otherwise continue to depreciate. He's working on the ass end of the problem. It's about jobs.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

No, I don't know how to find out that info on gold trades, but I was hoping someone would know.


This guy claims 2,000 tons a day in 08

http://www.gata.org/files/ThunderRoadReport-10-15-2009.pdf
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 05:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
December futures for Gold are below $1800.

I would bet the futures traders are more likely to be right than you are.
0 Replies
 
 

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