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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2011 06:32 pm
I'm in Sydney now, and wondered how the stock market was doing during the past 2 weeks, and found some of the losses before the trip was recovered. Not doing too badly YTD concerning the world economic turmoil. ++Can't figure out the bond market.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 12:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
Nikkei is now down 1.25% for the day trading at the lows for the month, and Gold is now with-in $15 of the all time high......looks like we are about ready for another running of the Bears.....
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 04:34 am
@hawkeye10,
Lord are a lot of people going to get wipe out when this large gold bubble burst.
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H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 07:33 am
Consumer prices rise 0.5% in July as gas, food, and shelter prices rise

Unemployment Rate: 9.1% in Jul 2011
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 09:29 am
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4V8JD3TFPPU/Tin68DoJUdI/AAAAAAAAADU/HKktWWMJ3OI/s1600/MarkSteyn.jpg


Mark Steyn diagnoses a decaying civilization


0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 09:38 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm in Sydney now, and wondered how the stock market was doing during the past 2 weeks, and found some of the losses before the trip was recovered. Not doing too badly YTD concerning the world economic turmoil. ++Can't figure out the bond market.

The bond market is easy to figure out: It's expecting a double-dip recession, but not an insolvent US government, so it's ignoring Standard and Poors' downgrade. Conseqently, brokers are rushing to buy. Indeed, if you account for inflation, they are currently paying the US government to hold their money for the next ten years. While Washington is obsessing over debt and deficits, ignoring the economy's demand side, the bond market is worrying about exactly the opposite. I think the market is right and Washington is wrong. But that's another story.

Moving on to the stock market, I think it's acting confused because it should be confused. To see why, remember how the fair value of a company is calculated. It's the sum of all its future profits, each discounted at the interest rate between now and when the profit materializes. In normal times, most of that value comes from profits expected within the next 20 years. (The discount on profits in the far future is too great to give them much weight.) But at an interest rate of, say, one percent, half a company's value comes from profits 70 years and later in the future. The fair value of a stock gets impossible to calculate at very low interest rates.

Now what interest rates are markets expecting? Looking at the yield of inflation-protected treasuries, we find that markets are expecting an average real interest rate of 0.85% for 30 years out---even less than the 1% I used in my example. It's no wonder, then, that the stock market is acting so conflicted on where the Dow ought to stand.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 10:20 am
@Thomas,
I generally agree with you, but note that the models most analysts and fiduciary trustees use for estimating the fair market price of a stock, whether publicly traded or traded in a restricted private market involve slightly different formalisms. Essnentially the value of an enterprise is the sum of the liquid component of equity and an "enterprise value" that is calculated in several ways, intelligible only to an accountant (they offend the aesthetic sensibilities of a mathematician). Typically enterprise value is determined by the sum of the present values of EBITDA for the next five years plus a "residual value" that is, in effect the present value of an annuity calculated at the companie's "weighted average cost of capital" (a value that favors debt over equity). This result (which generally conforms to your model) is modified by somewhat arbitrary factors including comparisons with the current values of publicly traded stocks of similar companies, and the market liquidity of the stock in question (some of which trade in limited markets).

Bottom line the fair value of a company can be approximated by, Value = Liquid Equity + f x Enterprise Value, where "f" is a factor with value usually between 4.0 and 5.5, depending on the marketability of the stock and the expectations for the future increase of profits.

Based on this, I suggest the confusion you cite in the stock market is based on uncertainty in expectations of future growth in business activity and profits. This doesn't contradict your insights, but I believe it puts a more accurate light on the state of mind of investors and managers sitting on cash they might otherwise invest in new business activity.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 11:28 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

...Based on this, I suggest the confusion you cite in the stock market is based on uncertainty in expectations of future growth in business activity and profits...

There's increased uncertainty in expectations, but there's also that money has lost its role as unit of account; gold is now used as a backstop in valuation calculations, because $ price comparisons, even inflation-adjusted, show vast discrepancies as function of base year. Ratios apply to the same time periods:
http://fintrend.com/ftf/images/charts/Oil_vs_Gold/Oil_vs_Gold_small.jpg
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 11:34 am
@High Seas,
Gold prices are reflecting one hell of a bubble...............

This time it going to be amusing to watch it burst.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 11:45 am
@BillRM,
A bubble in terms of what? Clearly not in terms of barrels of oil/ounce of gold ratio - or in terms of Swiss francs, or Japanese yen. Please check your model <G>
http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20110820_WBD001_0.jpg
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 11:57 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Based on this, I suggest the confusion you cite in the stock market is based on uncertainty in expectations of future growth in business activity and profits. This doesn't contradict your insights, but I believe it puts a more accurate light on the state of mind of investors and managers sitting on cash they might otherwise invest in new business activity.

Quite possible. That said, when it comes to investor psychology at very low interest rates, the man to beat is John Maynard Keynes. In chapter 12 of his General Theory, he draws an apt analogy between investing and picking winners in a beauty contest:

John Maynard Keynes wrote:
It might have been supposed that competition between expert professionals, possessing judgment and knowledge beyond that of the average private investor, would correct the vagaries of the ignorant individual left to himself. It happens, however, that the energies and skill of the professional investor and speculator are mainly occupied otherwise. For most of these persons are, in fact, largely concerned, not with making superior long-term forecasts of the probable yield of an investment over its whole life, but with foreseeing changes in the conventional basis of valuation a short time ahead of the general public. They are concerned, not with what an investment is really worth to a man who buys it 'for keeps', but with what the market will value it at, under the influence of mass psychology, three months or a year hence.

[. . .]

[P]rofessional investment may be likened to those newspaper competitions in which the competitors have to pick out the six prettiest faces from a hundred photographs, the prize being awarded to the competitor whose choice most nearly corresponds to the average preferences of the competitors as a whole; so that each competitor has to pick, not those faces which he himself finds prettiest, but those which he thinks likeliest to catch the fancy of the other competitors, all of whom are looking at the problem from the same point of view. It is not a case of choosing those which, to the best of one's judgment, are really the prettiest, nor even those which average opinion genuinely thinks the prettiest. We have reached the third degree where we devote our intelligences to anticipating what average opinion expects the average opinion to be. And there are some, I believe, who practise the fourth, fifth and higher degrees.


Source

The whole chapter is a gem if you can get over the Victorianisms in Keynes's language. It also confirms the additional emphasis your model places on liquidity.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 12:07 pm
Gold breaks $1820.

That is all.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 12:35 pm
Taking inflation into account gold has not gone up in value. What could you buy in the 1940s for an ounce of gold. It was $35, more or less, all through the '40s. (About £9 at the then exchange rate). I think the average industrial wage was about £5 a week ($20) at that time. Now £1 = $1.65. Mainly due to the US holding us to ransom while we took the sting out of Hitler. Us and the Russians.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 12:38 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Professional investment may be likened to those newspaper competitions in which the competitors have to pick out the six prettiest faces from a hundred photographs, the prize being awarded to the competitor whose choice most nearly corresponds to the average preferences of the competitors as a whole; so that each competitor has to pick, not those faces which he himself finds prettiest, but those which he thinks likeliest to catch the fancy of the other competitors, all of whom are looking at the problem from the same point of view. It is not a case of choosing those which, to the best of one's judgment, are really the prettiest, nor even those which average opinion genuinely thinks the prettiest. We have reached the third degree where we devote our intelligences to anticipating what average opinion expects the average opinion to be. And there are some, I believe, who practise the fourth, fifth and higher degrees.


Anybody who has a problem with the Victorianisms in Keynes's language is invited to explain the points made in post-modern language.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 01:13 pm


We are said to be going into a second recession, but we never recovered from the first recession.

Obama's economic policies have failed. Obama has failed. It's time to kick the kid to the curb and elect a leader.
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georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 01:25 pm
@Thomas,
It is worth remembering that the eminent Keynes' breakthrough career experience was as a second tier advisor to Lloyd George during the 1918-1919 Paris negotiations leading to the ill-conceived treaty later signed at Versailles. That alone was likely enough to later ensure a somewhat cynical estimate of any enduring realities on even a human time scale.

I believe the High Seas has provided some added twists that tend to favor your perspective as well.

My perspective has been shaped by my own experience, particularly as leader of a small group of managers who turned around and privatized a then very troubled publicly traded company. We paid off extensive loans and set up an ESOP trust with just under half of the stock of the company, acquiring in the process a third party fiduciary trustee -required by law to ensure we protect the interest of the employees in the ESOP trust. Our stock trades in an internal market of owners & managers at a price set by the trustee (in concert with our Board). We, like many others, are debt free and sitting on a lot of cash (about half of a year's revenue). We are committed to expanding the company, both geographically and in terms of service offerings, and to taking a long-range view of strategy - even to the next generation of owner managers.

Like others these days, we are sitting on a lot of cash (about a year's revenue). We have a few ongoing investments in growth & expansion, but I can assure you that it is very hard these days to calculate a favorable outcome, particularly considering the future actions of an increasingly intrusive government that appears to treat economic growth as a secondary issue, but assiduously seeks to appease the material appetites of its constituents.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 01:33 pm
http://gooseradio.com/wp-content/gallery/gooseradio-demotivators/responsibility-demotivator.gif
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H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2011 01:38 pm
http://yourworldunspun.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/us_president_barack_obama_spending_money_for_debt_policy_speech_strategy_comic_political_cartoon_economist_funny_best_top_free_greatest1.jpg
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