Where is the US economy headed?

Let's be honest, though. Bankers and policy makers (in the EU or America) don't make decisions because they are concerned about the effects on working-class folks, they do do based on the effects felt by themselves and their wealthy (or powerful, hi Spendi!) friends.

There we go. A nice piece of self-flattery George. That you are less credulous and more intelligent that even "informed" people is not something I would bet two sticks of rhubarb on.

Latvia and Estonia saw what, a 20% contraction of their GDP? You can't seriously expect Greek citizens to go for an additional reduction of that scope during a time of great crisis already!

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Let's be honest, though. Bankers and policy makers (in the EU or America) don't make decisions because they are concerned about the effects on working-class folks, they do do based on the effects felt by themselves and their wealthy (or powerful, hi Spendi!) friends.

Perhaps so. However, neither have I observed that "working class folks" make their decisions with the welfare of "bankers and policy-makers" or the wealthy and powerful in mind. They are all alike in the pursuit of their self-interest.

There appears to be a level of disagreement among the major EU nations concerning whether the Greek bondholders (not all of which are banks) should take a haircut, with the German government until recently insisting on at least a deferral of some interest payments and/or modified restructuring of debt, depending on how you describe it. It is just a fact that German exposure to Greek debt is less than that of France, but there are other elements involved here as well including long-standing national differences on issues such as national thrift and monetary policy. Certainly self-interest is part of it, but I think you are wrongly trivializing a more complex issue.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Latvia and Estonia saw what, a 20% contraction of their GDP? You can't seriously expect Greek citizens to go for an additional reduction of that scope during a time of great crisis already!

I've spend a lot of time in Greece. I don't expect a lot of adult behavior from them.

However, it is odd that they alone have been so reluctant to face facts that other nations from Iceland, to Ireland, Latvia and Estonia have done without all the whining and riots.

Any issue can be argued to be as complex as it needs to be - to serve someone's interest, that is. Apply Occam's razor to the problem and you cut through a bunch of that crap really quick.

Cycloptichorn

For example, it is the French government that has argued forcefully against any restructuring of the Greek debt - not their bankers.

Major enterprises, including banks, in France generally involve some level of governmental governance and it is sometimes difficult to know where one ends and the other begins.

However there do appear to be some valid concerns about spreading crises in undercapitalized European banks that could spread the problem and its bad effects. It isn't necessarily only the greed of bankers.

The fact that bankers make a profit on a loan does not absolve the borrower of the obligation to honor the contract he signed to repay the loan.

[Well, half the reason people are rioting is that they feel like some plutocrats got them all into this mess; making decisions that most of the country didn't support and using money they got from EU banks to basically buy elections.

I wouldn't be so quick to put Ireland on that list. If the elections hadn't gone the way they did, I think you would have seen a great deal of unrest there.

They weren't plutocrats: they were the leaders of the Socialist government.

Quote:

They weren't plutocrats: they were the leaders of the Socialist government.

Do you call this being social? I would think the opposite!

Go **** yourself Spendi.

Sure, but one group has the power to make decisions that affect the other group, and one does not.

Apply Occam's razor to the problem and you cut through a bunch of that crap really quick.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure they do. They can print all the Euros they want. They simply don't want to go that route, because it waters down the fortunes of the richest and most powerful.Cycloptichorn

Oh I think working class retirees in France wouldn't like it much either - it would take money (purchasing power) out of their pockets too.

It is worth remembering that a major element of the crisis is the fradulent financial data provided to the EU by previous Greek governments. Whather this was something that was readily detectable by other EU members at the time is something I don't really know. I suspect it was a detectable but politically unpleasant prospect that was ignored to the detriment of all.