Where is the US economy headed?

@georgeob1,

Germany and France doesn't have enough "cash" to keep propping up Greece and those other countries operating under water now. They'll all end up drowning.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

It's not Greece that is being bailed out, it is their creditors who are being bailed out. That's an important distinction here, and it's one of the prime reasons the Greek people are pissed off.

As one blogger, Atrios, put it:

Quote:

If the European Central Bank is worried that some of its banksters might miss a happy hour or two if Greece defaults, they can print up a bunch of free money for their bankster pals and call it a day. Instead they're trying to inflict mass suffering on the people of Greece, with the enthusiastic cooperation of Greek leaders.

It's almost as if some believe the ONLY risk and responsibility lies with those who take out a loan; that those who GIVE loans have no exposure to risk whatsoever. This is an inaccurate way to view the world.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Germany and France doesn't have enough "cash" to keep propping up Greece and those other countries operating under water now. They'll all end up drowning.

Sure they do. They can print all the Euros they want. They simply don't want to go that route, because it waters down the fortunes of the richest and most powerful.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

. . . the eagerness of France to protect its banks with German money. . . .

No reason for quoting, except I just wanted to see it again.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Quote:

If the European Central Bank is worried that some of its banksters might miss a happy hour or two if Greece defaults, they can print up a bunch of free money for their bankster pals and call it a day. Instead they're trying to inflict mass suffering on the people of Greece, with the enthusiastic cooperation of Greek leaders.

Quote:

It's almost as if some believe the ONLY risk and responsibility lies with those who take out a loan; that those who GIVE loans have no exposure to risk whatsoever. This is an inaccurate way to view the world.

Cycloptichorn

Very, very good! Reply

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's not Greece that is being bailed out, it is their creditors who are being bailed out. That's an important distinction here, and it's one of the prime reasons the Greek people are pissed off. Cycloptichorn

I agree that the apparent "generosity" of France & Germany is in part motivated by self interest - the protection of their banks and of their currency. However those are pretty serious matters of themselves, and nations such as Germany that have exercised self-restraint in spending and focused their efforts on producing quality products that others want tend to become impatient with those who expect a free ride.

You appear to imply that the Greeks don't need a bailout and could simply go on borrowing money and spending more than they collect or produce. Interestingly you appear to believe that about the United States as well.

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure they do. They can print all the Euros they want. They simply don't want to go that route, because it waters down the fortunes of the richest and most powerful.Cycloptichorn

Oh I think working class retirees in France wouldn't like it much either - it would take money (purchasing power) out of their pockets too.

It is worth remembering that a major element of the crisis is the fradulent financial data provided to the EU by previous Greek governments. Whather this was something that was readily detectable by other EU members at the time is something I don't really know. I suspect it was a detectable but politically unpleasant prospect that was ignored to the detriment of all.

2 Replies

@reasoning logic,

Well it's not actually rl.

Cyclo has got the rich mixed up with the powerful as if they are the same. Such intellectual shallowness is a result of getting an 'ology too easily and that should not be confused with wisdom.

I understand what he's up to of course. He's a leftie and they are always up to the same thing.

You really do have a lot to learn my young man. It's actually funnier. Cyclo doesn't know that he is always up to the same stunt. He's been set in motion by those who do know. When they come to power, as they hope to do, they will probably reward him by letting him be the Commissar on his block for selfless devotionto the idea that it isn't fair him being skint just because he can't compete. It's a popular idea. For obvious reasons.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

I do not know if that is his belief but I do think that we will try to manipulate our way out of this any way we can and make the less fortunate pay for it but I think it is to late!

I think that the internet is to informative to allow this to continue indifferently!

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's not Greece that is being bailed out, it is their creditors who are being bailed out. That's an important distinction here, and it's one of the prime reasons the Greek people are pissed off. Cycloptichorn

I agree that the apparent "generosity" of France & Germany is in part motivated by self interest - the protection of their banks and of theiur currency. However those are pretty serious matters of themselves, and nations such as Germany that have exercised self-restraint in spending and focused their efforts on producing quality products that others want tend to become impatient with those who expect a free ride.

But, it wasn't a 'free ride' - German banks KNEW they were lending to a risky situation, and they did it anyway. They pocketed handsome fees and profits for doing so for years, and now that the whole thing has blown up, they pretend that moral hazard simply shouldn't exist.

Quote:

You appear to imply that the Greeks don't need a bailout and could simply go on borrowing money and spending more than they collect or produce. Interestingly you appear to believe that about the United States as well.

I haven't ever said anything of the sort about either Greece or America. In fact, I would point out that I have consistently called for tax raises and cuts in spending to balance our budgets here at home as soon as possible. So, you're simply incorrect in your statement above, re: America.

Regarding Greece, the position of the EU banks currently is: "Implode and bail OUR asses out, or implode yourselves and we'll watch you burn and do nothing." The Greeks are going to have to make hard choices about their future either way, but better to do so under their own governance than that of some rich guys in Germany and France who don't want to take responsibility for their own shitty decisions.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@spendius,

Our Daily Mail claims that the Greek bailout will cost the UK £366 billion. Which, it seems, is £46,000 for every family. I know a good few families and if anybody thinks they can get £46 grand out of them they are going to need more than shamanistic incantations.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

I do not know if that is his belief but I do think that we will try to manipulate our way out of this any way we can and make the less fortunate pay for it but I think it is to late!

I think that the internet is to informative to allow this to continue indifferently!

I think everyone would like to see someone else pay the bill.

I think you have to much faith in the internet and too little confidence in the credulity and stupidity of even "informed" people.

1 Reply

@spendius,

The word is that Germany has the will and the clout to keep the Eurozone intact wishful US thinking notwithstanding.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure they do. They can print all the Euros they want. They simply don't want to go that route, because it waters down the fortunes of the richest and most powerful.Cycloptichorn

Oh I think working class retirees in France wouldn't like it much either - it would take money (purchasing power) out of their pockets too.

So what? I don't really care too much about that either. I'm sure working-class retirees here in America don't like the various QE programs that we've been getting up to here in order to shore our system up; but that doesn't mean that they are right, in the slightest.

Let's be honest, though. Bankers and policy makers (in the EU or America) don't make decisions because they are concerned about the effects on working-class folks, they do do based on the effects felt by themselves and their wealthy (or powerful, hi Spendi!) friends.

Quote:

It is worth remembering that a major element of the crisis is the fradulent financial data provided to the EU by previous Greek governments. Whather this was something that was readily detectable by other EU members at the time is something I don't really know. I suspect it was a detectable but politically unpleasant prospect that was ignored to the detriment of all.

Yes, but now those who ignored that data and profited from that willful ignorance are now claiming that they don't bear responsibility. They certainly do, and should be willing to take a big haircut on their bad decision.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

Quote:

I think you have to much faith in the interned and too little confidence in the credulity and stupidity of even "informed" people.

There we go. A nice piece of self-flattery George. That you are less credulous and more intelligent that even "informed" people is not something I would bet two sticks of rhubarb on.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The Greeks are going to have to make hard choices about their future either way, but better to do so under their own governance than that of some rich guys in Germany and France who don't want to take responsibility for their own shitty decisions.

Then we agree that, in the EURO Zone or out of it, the Greeks are going to have to face some difficult choices and real austerity.

Neither of us knows the details of how the bank loans to Greece were made. The fact is Greece has long been a relatively poor (and badly governed) country relative to the major EU powers. EU membership has been a very good deal for Greece with massive infusion of EU funds for roads, bridges and other infrastructure. The European project has some fairly admirable goals and, though they have skirted by some serious political issues, some of which are at play in the Greek financial crisis, the major European powers have done a lot to improve living standards throughout the continent. I think they are entitled to look out for themselves when faced with irresponsibility of the magnitude behind the current crisis in Greece.

Other European countries , from Iceland to Ireland, Latvia and Estonia have faced their versions of the financial crisis and willingly self-imposed the needed tough remedies. Greece appears to see itself as an exception.

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Nobody is willing to take a "big haircut" no matter how bad their decisions were. Watch the freezing point of gold.

0 Replies

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

The word is that Germany has the will and the clout to keep the Eurozone intact wishful US thinking notwithstanding.

Germany has the ability, but they are also the only country that is strong enough to go it alone as well, so the will part is in doubt. France is toast, their books and economy are both a mess, they were even before the EU not as strong as Germany but the Germans were magnanimous enough to pretend that they were are the two worked together to create the EU and the Euro.

Most of the experts expect that the Germans will suck it up and stick with the EU, I am thinking that the drip, drip, drip of paying everyone elses bills will eventually get to the Germans and they will get to ENOUGH!

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote:

Greece appears to see itself as an exception.

No ****...the Geeks are like the Chinese in that they have ALWAYS felt that the rules do not apply to them. However, Greece is not China, they do not have the power to decide to tell the rest of the world to **** off.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Latvia and Estonia saw what, a 20% contraction of their GDP? You can't seriously expect Greek citizens to go for an additional reduction of that scope during a time of great crisis already!

If they are going to have to do that (which they probably will), they really ought to send a message to the EU and the rest of the international banking community by telling them to go **** themselves. Perhaps they will look at a country's books a little closer before loaning them money next time.

I haven't seen much on your part about the fact that the banks and lenders in question profited quite a bit on these loans - until the whole thing blew up. I suspect that they did indeed know how bad the situation is - in fact, I remember having a discussion with you about how our own Goldman Sachs helped the Greek gov't hide their money woes using accounting tricks, only to have it be waved away by you as 'not important' or somesuch....

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Where is the US economy headed?

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