114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:10 am
@Cycloptichorn,
And many college grads are moving back to their parents home, because they are having difficulty finding jobs.
0 Replies
 
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I think the Jimmy Choo analagy with Greece is pretty accurate actually.

Those boys certainly know how run up a bill that they know they can't pay.
The recession just happened along at the right time for them to conveniently shift the blame somewhere else.

Sorry, but if you scratch the surface, you'll find they've been up to all sorts of shenanigans, and now they've been rumbled.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:25 am
@Old Goat,
Old Goat wrote:

I think the Jimmy Choo analagy with Greece is pretty accurate actually.

Those boys certainly know how run up a bill that they know they can't pay.
The recession just happened along at the right time for them to conveniently shift the blame somewhere else.

Sorry, but if you scratch the surface, you'll find they've been up to all sorts of shenanigans, and now they've been rumbled.


With regard to Greece, I agree with you; I didn't notice that we were talking about them, and not the US, sorry.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:38 am
Average age of retirement (Greek public sector) = 53
Public Servants getting "13th and 14th month" pay, whatever that is.
"Ghost" jobs by the thousand in the public sector, usually given to family members who don't ever turn up for work and actually work somewhere else in many instances......I could go on.....

This is all going to change when the new conditions of the loans come into effect and that, primarily, is what is causing the people (public sector mainly) to take to the streets.
Basically, Greece is being brought into line with the pay, conditions and retirement packages as most of the rest of the European workers and they don't like it one little bit.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 02:38 pm
http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/cut-and-grow-i-say-no/

Quote:
Cut and Grow? I Say No.

Neil Irwin’s WaPo piece this AM provides a useful review of the different ways economists and politicians are thinking about the short-term impact of spending cuts on growth and jobs.

I’ve been pretty aghast to hear claims that large cuts would immediately generate job growth (and Irwin should have at least quoted someone with that view in the piece) when the opposite is almost surely the case. You can make this a lot more complicated, but when you’re as far below capacity as we are—when so many people are unemployed, e.g.—it’s really quite simple arithmetic. Government spending feeds right into GDP growth and cuts subtract from it.

Now, when you’re at full capacity, it’s different. At that point you’re pouring water into a glass that’s already full so you’re just wasting water. And you’re going to need some paper towels to clean it up (that’s inflation in this example—sorry, it’s early and I’m only partially caffeinated).

But with GDP growth just around trend (positive but not all that strong) factories with capacity to spare, and 20+ million un- or underemployed, there’s space in the glass. In fact, if you look at the GDP or employment accounts, it’s clear that state spending contractions are a real drag on growth and jobs right now. (Maybe I’ll try to post some graphs on this later.)

If I ran the country and had my druthers and wasn’t constrained by today’s budget politics (yes, that’s a lot of ‘ifs’), I’d do another round state fiscal relief.

The story the “cut-now-and-grow” lobby wants to tell depends not on arithmetic, but on what Krugman calls the confidence fairy (she’s good) and the crowding-out troll (he’s bad). In a tight budget environment like today’s, politicians love the fairy because she provides free stimulus. And since she’s a fantasy, you can attribute anything you want to her: “confidence in the markets depends on [your favorite budget cut here]!!”

Then there’s the notion that high public spending levels are crowding out private borrowing. Again, not a plausible story with excess capacity, the Fed funds rate at zero, and companies sitting on cash that they could invest with if they saw good reasons to do so.

One final beef with this story. Irwin cites economist Kevin Hassett at the end of the piece suggesting that cutting government benefits to individuals would be more stimulative than cutting government infrastructure. Besides being backwards—the question is what would hurt growth least, not which “…cuts would be more beneficial”—the evidence I’ve seen, like Table 11 here, shows infrastructure in the middle of the pack in terms of stimulative impact, less than some of the major benefit programs like unemployment insurance of food stamps.

And here’s something else on infrastructure, from someone who’s spent part of a career tracking its impact: compared to the other spending programs that get resources to folks who need it and will spend it quickly, it’s slow. Remember, at the heart of this argument is policy measures that would generate “immediate relief,” something a lot of people in this economy could use right now.

I’m all for infrastructure investment—it’s a key input to our economic productivity, security, and living standards. But compared to spending on individuals, its stimulative impact usually occurs in the medium term, not right away.


Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 04:00 pm
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/senate-republicans-split-on-vote-to-end-medicare.php?ref=fpa

Senate rejects House Republican 2012 budget, 57-40.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 04:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It's very simple logic; cut spending also cuts jobs. I'd like to know how republicans can reconcile this conflict? Of coarse, they are not known for common sense or logic.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 09:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
So, does your logic say that government will pay for or provide every job in this country? No wonder we are in such dire straits, if every Democrat or Obama supporter think as you do. You might want to wake up and realize that such a policy is a deadend in colossal failure.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 09:27 pm
@okie,
You're an idiot. Your extremes belong in grade school where they don't know anything - like you!

My comment about republicans having no common sense or logic applies to you too.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 07:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Since it is so logical, it should be very easy for you to explain to all of us how the government can simply spend our way to prosperity. That would apparently include the government providing jobs for everyone? Please explain to us how that would work? How would everyone work for the government, make a living for their families, plus pay enough taxes to support a government to provide all of those jobs, plus provide all of the other essential services of government? As a math teacher would say to you also, cicerone imposter, "show your work."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 09:27 pm
@okie,
okie wrote,
Quote:
explain to all of us how the government can simply spend our way to prosperity.


Where did I even suggest such a thing?
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 06:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
Your support of Obama suggests that you support spending our way to prosperity.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 09:43 am
@H2O MAN,
No, it doesn't. You believe what you wrote, because you do not have the capacity, like okie, to remember all the negatives I have written on Obama.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 09:56 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I would like to see your math & data on that claim.


Sorry, forgot to respond to this earlier.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-graph-all-budget-discussions-should-start-with/2011/04/11/AFmhRLKD_blog.html

According to the CBO's numbers, passing no new laws whatsoever - which of course includes unpopular things like no AMT adjustment, no Medicare doc fix, as well as the Bush tax cuts expiring - leads to a balanced budget in just a couple of years.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/CBO2010-base-AF2-500x239.jpg

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:01 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
okie wrote,
Quote:
explain to all of us how the government can simply spend our way to prosperity.
Where did I even suggest such a thing?
You apparently have a short memory, ci. Here is what you said a few posts back, which was in response to a suggestion that cutting spending is an obvious solution for a government that is going broke.
Quote:
......It's very simple logic; cut spending also cuts jobs. I'd like to know how republicans can reconcile this conflict?....
I then challenged you to show how government spending more money to provide jobs can both improve the economy as well as pay for a virtually bankrupt government. I am still waiting for you to show how that can be done. You said it was simple logic. Show your math.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:03 am
@okie,
Quote:
You apparently have a short memory, ci. Here is what you said a few posts back, which was in response to a suggestion that cutting spending is an obvious solution for a government that is going broke.


That's an 'obviously' idiotic idea. CI was right; cutting gov't spending DOES cut jobs, and it's a terrible idea during a jobs crisis, which is what we have now.

Take a look at Britain and their Austerity programs. They are tanking their economy and causing the gov't to borrow more than ever.

The truth is that borrowed money DOES lead to prosperity - but only in the short-term. Let's examine an example: my wife's graduate school. We have been basically running a big deficit and now have a debt built up, because we couldn't afford to pay her school out of pocket, and going there full-time precludes her ability to work. Now, she's graduated, but with a fine degree that will help us earn a lot of money over the course of our life. Are you going to tell me that our deficit spending was a bad idea? Of course not!

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:15 am
@Cycloptichorn,
It depends upon whether her degree translates into a good job in a reasonable amount of time? A degree nowadays does not necessarily mean success. For example, what is the degree in and is there a good demand in that field? Also, what is the future outlook for the field in which she has the degree?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:25 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The truth is that borrowed money DOES lead to prosperity - but only in the short-term. Let's examine an example: my wife's graduate school. We have been basically running a big deficit and now have a debt built up, because we couldn't afford to pay her school out of pocket, and going there full-time precludes her ability to work. Now, she's graduated, but with a fine degree that will help us earn a lot of money over the course of our life. Are you going to tell me that our deficit spending was a bad idea? Of course not!

Cycloptichorn


Presisely this argument was used by many investors and homeowners in borrowing large sums to finance the acquisition of real property. When the market dropped the value of this property they were left stranded. Same goes for your estimate of the future value of your wife's education. A lot depends on future demand for the services for which she was trained, the market value of those services, and the skills & productivity potential she demonstrates to potential employers. These are all variables subject to factors you casn neither control nor predict with perfect accuracy. Bottom line is that your assertion that "borrowed money DOES lead to prosperity" is demonstrably false. It is true sometimes and sometimes not. A lot depends on the future behavior of the market valuations involved and the degree to which the borrowing itself (and other uncontrollable factors) might affect that valuation.

In the case at hand there is good reason (not irrefutable proof) to believe that continued excessive government regulating, borrowing, spending and taxing (our deficit has been growing as almost a trillion dollars per year lately), might stifle productive economic activity much as it observably has done in Greece, and , as well, might breed an enervating climate of public dependency and unwillingness to take entreprenurial risks (as is also observable in Greece) - and thereby destroy the ability of the economy to produce more value as a result of the added borrowing, spending, taxing and regulating , thus merely digging an ever deeper economic hole - as also is the situation in Greece.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:35 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

It depends upon whether her degree translates into a good job in a reasonable amount of time? A degree nowadays does not necessarily mean success. For example, what is the degree in and is there a good demand in that field? Also, what is the future outlook for the field in which she has the degree?


She has achieved her PhD in Psychology. The going rate for practitioners out here in the Bay Area is anywhere from 75-125 dollars an hour. She specializes in working with Autistic children, an area for which there is currently a great demand, due to the behavioral difficulties associated with the disorder - and one which is rising, as diagnoses of Autism have rocketed upwards in the last decade.

So, yeah - I think the 100k+ in debt is worth it. Her earning potential now eclipses my current potential over the next 35 years, and her choice of profession will offer her flexibility and options that are unavailable to those of us who work office jobs.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:45 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Same goes for your estimate of the future value of your wife's education.


Well, all I can say to that, is that if the current going rate for her profession was HALF what it currently is, the math still works out that her schooling is profitable in the long run. Not only that, it affords her the opportunity to work in a profession she cares about, at a high level. So, I would say that our estimates of the value of this purchase have very large tolerances, and all available evidence shows that the choice was the correct one.

Re: the purchase of realty, as usual, you are telling only a small part of the story. The truth is that what made those purchases attractive were unregulated insurance products on those purchases - products which Republicans long claim didn't need to be regulated, which were specifically chosen by Bush not to be regulated, and which imploded spectacularly. It wasn't the drop of the housing market that stranded investors - it was the collapse of their insurance assurances.

Cycloptichorn
 

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