114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 05:43 pm
I see that the U.S. markets fell by 1% or more today, dragged down by increased fears about some European economies. The dollar rose as the Euro fell. This caused oil in the states to drop by over 2%, although it recovered later in the day.
Regarding inflation, Tak, yes we have seen food prices rise which does affect many of us. But, absent wage inflation, which we are not seeing, we will probably stay in the 2% range.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 06:27 pm
@georgeob1,
I remember Red Heat. We not only got along pretty well, she dedicated one of her Friday Jokes to me. I even got Pdiddie to track her down so we could invite her to a2k. She had a few skirmishes with Craven and didn't stay long.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 06:28 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

[Doesn't seem to stop you from predicting inflation in our near future though, based solely on the variable of our high debt.
I believe inflation will come as do many others. As I outlined above this is NOT based solely on the level of our current debt. Other significvant factors include the fact that the debt has been rising at a rate much greater than that of the economy and there is no yet evident prospect that economic growth will accelerate enough to change that; and my perceptions that (1) the growing inclination of our government to interfere in energy development and increase labor market regulation will further inhibit economic growth; and (2) that the current political impasse will likely prevent us from taking sufficient action to curtail the growth of our debt.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Inflation fears are way overstated at the moment; in large part because individuals aren't very good at predicting inflation rates.
You say they are overstated but you don't know the future any better than I. There's a real possibility you may be merely whistling in the dark. We have created huge increases in the money supply and have enormous balances of dollars in the hands of other countries - and we have little ability to control the dynamics of how these two excesses will play out. Fast growing inflation is a real possibility. Others have been surprised by this too.



Cycloptichorn
[/quote]
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 06:46 pm
@realjohnboy,
I believe that the 2% inflation rate in "this" economy is about the right balance for now.

As for the circulation of money in the US, there are $2.58 trillion in coins, and $853 billion in currency. We have over 8,100 tons of gold in the US, and at current values, it's worth over $428.5 billion.

If gold should suddenly flood the market, what will happen to the price of gold?

How will the supply of currency support the total value of gold in the US?

roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 07:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You mean, there is less $ in currency in circulation than in coins? Counterintuitive, by maybe.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 07:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Wow I thought that the actual printed currency was way less than ten percent and the rest was made up of notes and digital format on the computer, You know like a huge ancient pyramid scheme, Most of us at the bottom and a lot less at the top!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 07:58 pm
@roger,
Yes, roger, hard to believe isn't it? Here's the link that I used.
http://www.visualeconomics.com/the-value-of-united-states-currency-in-circulation/

There is no way that those holding gold is going to be able to get cash for their "investment."

The only time I've recommended the purchase of gold was in 2008. My timing on our own retirement investments have done very well since I retired in 1998. In 2008, my wife lost only 11%, and I lost 17%; way below the 40% loss average for all investors.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 08:43 pm
My own estimate of future inflation is based two concepts: the "natural rate of unemployment" and a rule of thumb called "Okun's Law". Based on these concepts I predict that core inflation will remain below three percent a year for the next five years.

When the economy is sputtering for lack of aggregate demand, as it is today, the deficit-spending and money-printing can decrease unemployment without accelerating inflation. But only up to a point: Once unemployment sinks below that point, inflation takes off again. That's what economists call the "natural rate of unemployment", and the common estimate is that it's around 5 percent.

How long will it take for unemployment to sink to 5%? This is where "Okun's Law" comes in. Historically, the US economy has needed to grow at a rate of 2.5% to keep the unemployment rate constant, given the growth of productivity and the population. For every additional percentage point of GDP growth, the unemployment rate has come down by half a percent.

So let's look at the best-case scenario: The US economy really starts taking off, growing at a rate of 4.5 percent per year. As a result, the unemployment rate decreases by 1 percentage point a year, reaching its natural rate of 5% in, uh, 2015. Until this point, inflation remains approximately at its current level, and interest rates remain at rock bottom.

A worse case (but not the worst---that would be a second coming of the Great Depression) is that GDP growth remains about what it currently is, keeping unemployment more or less constant at about 9%. In this case, it will take even longer until inflation is a concern.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that core inflation will remain below 3% for the next five years. Anyone want to bet against that?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 09:45 pm
Quote:
By Ezra Klein, Monday, May 23, 3:01 PM
Here’s what we should’ve learned from the events of the past decade: Murphy was right. What can go wrong, will go wrong — and we need to plan accordingly. Because terrorist attacks? They happen. Credit bubbles? They burst. Underregulated Wall Street banks? They fail. Poorly designed offshore drilling platforms? They explode. Overleveraged European economies? They can’t pay their debts. Broken-down levees in hurricane country? They breach.

But we haven’t learned our lesson. Forget preparing for the “black swans,” investor Nassim Taleb’s name for the unpredictable crises that disrupt and damage our lives. We’ve stopped preparing for what economist Nouriel Roubini calls the “white swans”: the crises we can predict, and could even prevent.


It’s been less than three years since the fall of Lehman. The financial crisis remains lodged in our minds, and in our jobless rate. And yet the Federal Reserve lacks a vice chairman for banking supervision. There’s no one officially in charge of the Treasury Department’s Office of Financial Research. The seat marked “insurance” on Financial Stability Oversight Council is empty. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has a leader but not a director. No one has been confirmed to head the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. And Republicans are still saying Nobel Prize-winning economist Peter Diamond is underqualified to serve on the Federal Reserve’s Board of Governors.

Meanwhile, the House GOP is fighting to starve financial regulators of the resources they need to do their work. Both the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission needed extra money to scale up to their expanded roles under the Dodd-Frank law, but the Republicans’ 2011 budget proposal whacked them with sharp cuts — and then their 2012 proposal repealed most of Dodd-Frank, with no vision for what should go in its place. The irony? All this is being pursued under the guise of deficit reduction. And why do we have such a gaping deficit? The . . . financial crisis.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/it-can-go-wrong-it-will-go-wrong/2011/05/23/AFFvt19G_story.html?hpid=z2

Yep, add another name to the list of people who "get it " that the economic system is broken, and also the political system is broken so we cant fix the economic system. We are all just waiting around for the big crash now, waiting for this civilization to finish dying so that the next one can be birthed.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 09:25 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

[Doesn't seem to stop you from predicting inflation in our near future though, based solely on the variable of our high debt.
I believe inflation will come as do many others. As I outlined above this is NOT based solely on the level of our current debt. Other significvant factors include the fact that the debt has been rising at a rate much greater than that of the economy and there is no yet evident prospect that economic growth will accelerate enough to change that; and my perceptions that (1) the growing inclination of our government to interfere in energy development and increase labor market regulation will further inhibit economic growth; and (2) that the current political impasse will likely prevent us from taking sufficient action to curtail the growth of our debt.


I think you are wrong on both points. I don't think there's much objective evidence that 'interference in energy development' is holding our nation's recovery back. It's just a hobby-horse you like to ride. And from an environmental point of view, energy production is turning out to be one of the worst offenders possible, so I think it's fair to say that these industries are being 'held back' for a reason. A good reason.

Secondly, political deadlock does NOT automatically stop action to curtail the growth of the debt, for one main reason: the Bush tax cuts are all set to expire after 2012. If we do nothing at all, our deficit will shrink by 70% or more within 5 years. Doing nothing at all would actually be a more effective plan for closing our deficit than anything the GOP or Obama has proposed.

Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Inflation fears are way overstated at the moment; in large part because individuals aren't very good at predicting inflation rates.
You say they are overstated but you don't know the future any better than I. There's a real possibility you may be merely whistling in the dark. We have created huge increases in the money supply and have enormous balances of dollars in the hands of other countries - and we have little ability to control the dynamics of how these two excesses will play out. Fast growing inflation is a real possibility. Others have been surprised by this too.
[/quote]

There's just no evidence that it's coming. None of the indicators I look at show inflation or that people are spooked by inflation. In fact, the only element I see right now that is problematic, is the ridiculous 'debt limit' brinksmanship being practiced by the GOP right now. We very well could have a problem if they refuse to pass an increase that would cover the budget they JUST PASSED.

I could have cut your inflation fear worries, and pasted them into any year in the last twenty; in fact, what you write is extremely similar to what inflation hawks have been writing my entire life. And they've been wrong pretty much the whole time.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - during Reagan's 'morning in America,' inflation was more than double what it has been for the last decade. We could see a doubling of inflation right now and be juuuust fine.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 09:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Krugman has another post today, which could be tailor-made for this discussion:

Quote:
May 24, 2011, 4:14 am
Debt Arithmetic (Wonkish)

The whole tone of current discussion about deficits is one of urgency: deficits must be brought down now now now or crisis looms. Where is this coming from? Not from the arithmetic.

The way the story is often told, deficits mean higher debt, which means higher interest payments, which can mean a spiral into bankruptcy. And qualitatively that’s not wrong. If you put numbers to it, however, for countries that are not facing huge risk premia, the spiral is very, very slow.

Here’s a sample calculation.

The latest IMF Fiscal Monitor predicts that general government in the US — that’s federal, state and local combined — will run a deficit of 7.5 percent of GDP next year, and that net debt will be 75 percent of GDP.

So how fast would the debt spiral be going?

You need to bear in mind that growth and inflation limit the rate of rise in the debt ratio. Suppose that we have 4 percent nominal GDP growth, which is actually low by historical standards. This shaves 3 percentage points off the rise in the debt/GDP ratio. So a year later, given those numbers, debt rises by 4.5 percentage points of GDP.

What’s the interest burden of that rise? At minimum we should correct for inflation, so use the TIPS yield. That’s currently below 1, but let’s be pessimistic and call it 2. Even so, the added interest burden is less than one-tenth of one percent of GDP.

So even with substantial deficits, the pace of long-term budget worsening is very slow. If it’s a debt death spiral, it’s a slooooowww motion death spiral.

But, say the critics, psychology can change suddenly, sharply raising those interest costs. The question then is why psychology should change. Investors can do the same arithmetic I’ve just done; why should they panic over a small rise in the interest burden?

Now, investors might well panic over signs of political deadlock — but that could happen regardless of the current year’s deficit.

Still, Serious People tell us that investors will turn on us unless we slash the deficit immediately — and they know this because, well, um …

As I’ve often written, we’re in a strange state now where people who actually take textbook economics and simple arithmetic seriously are seen as dangerously radical and irresponsible, while people who believe in invisible bond vigilantes and confidence fairies, who claim to know what the market will want even though there’s no sign of that desire in current asset prices, are viewed as Very Serious.


Anyway, the arithmetic of debt is much less scary than you might think.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/debt-arithmetic-wonkish/

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 10:22 am
@Cycloptichorn,
To piggy-back on that idea, it's important to note that the US economy is gaining some strength; even in Silicon Valley, the unemployment dropped below 10% - a first since 2009.

It's going to be a very slow recovery for sure, but we're headed in the right direction. The trick is not to react drastically to this positive trend - as being promoted by the GOP. Even the stock market has gained this year, and that's because those companies doing well are keeping our economy on a steady growth.

Our countries economy is relatively strong, because it includes many different forms of products and services - and our exposure in the world economy.

The only weakness I see is that our educational system is being compromised for the long term, and that is a handicap that will make us less competitive in the world marketplace.

georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 04:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I think you are wrong on both points. I don't think there's much objective evidence that 'interference in energy development' is holding our nation's recovery back. It's just a hobby-horse you like to ride. And from an environmental point of view, energy production is turning out to be one of the worst offenders possible, so I think it's fair to say that thes industries are being 'held back' for a reason. A good reason.
A strange statement on several levels. The rapid rise in petroleum prices is having a fairly obvious significan adverse effect on both economic activity and our balance of payments problems. The extended ban on drilling operations in the Gulf has simply caused this activity and the investments involved to move to Brazil, and getting it back will likely take a long time. In short it is indeed a real, self-inflicted problem. In your next sentence you acknowledge the truth of what you denied in the first but rationalize it based on a presumed bad effect on the environment.
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Secondly, political deadlock does NOT automatically stop action to curtail the growth of the debt, for one main reason: the Bush tax cuts are all set to expire after 2012. If we do nothing at all, our deficit will shrink by 70% or more within 5 years. Doing nothing at all would actually be a more effective plan for closing our deficit than anything the GOP or Obama has proposed.
I would like to see your math & data on that claim. The expected government revenues from these tax increases don't come close to the level you imply. Moreover, our deficit is growing rather fast right now, in no small part due to the continuing expansion of government activity enacted by the current Administration. Their estimates of the projected government costs of the health care program have already been shown to be unrealistically low and the ongoing example in Masachusetts reminds us they will likely go even higher. It took a long while for us to get to the present financial situation, but we would be seriously remiss if we don't deal decisively with it now.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'll repeat what I said earlier - during Reagan's 'morning in America,' inflation was more than double what it has been for the last decade. We could see a doubling of inflation right now and be juuuust fine.


The perverse combination of stagnant economic growth and high inflation developed in the Carter years. The high interest rates that attended the start of the first Reagan administration were an essential part of the remedy, initiated by the Fed's Paul Voelker to contain and reverse it through monetary policy, and sustained during the early Reagan years along with a host of economic confidence building policies that ended the inflation to which you refer and inaugriated an extended two decade perioud of sustained high economic growth. What we have now is much more like the strangulation of economic activity that occurred during the Carter years.
Pukka Sahib
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 07:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
I am dismayed by the attitude of our Republican friends on the issue of the national debt in this period of recovery from the longest recession since the great depression. What sense is it to cut spending when that is precisely what is needed to stimulate the economy? And to extend tax cuts for the wealthy while cutting benefits for the needy makes no sense at all. It represents a view that is both selfish and shortsighted - an attitude so prevalent among our policymakers today. To put the blame for our improvident spending on Social Security and Medicare only begs the question of our priorities. What else is the purpose of government but to provide for such things? To cut spending on these seems unworthy of the greatest nation of the world.

Whenever I find myself looking narrowly at some social welfare program, I think of the Preamble to the Constitution, which always puts my views in proper perspective. It is “We the People” - not me, me, me. Need must it be so, for the true greatness of a nation, and its moral progress, is not measured by its wealth or power, but by the manner in which it provides for the welfare of its people.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 10:48 am
@Pukka Sahib,
PS, Well stated, indeed! Today's article by Krugman is a good one; it explains how those European nations who have received loans to live more in austerity, but that's the reverse of what their governments should be doing. The economies of Greece, Portugal, and Italy are not making economic progress by these controls by the Euro leaders. It is instead making things worse! It's a good lesson for our leaders in Washington, but the GOP is hell-bent on ruining this economy by their meme of "cut spending." These are people who do not understand economics, but only parrot what their party leaders tell them to say. Ignoramuses all!

It is my personal opinion that the government must approve another stim bill to give it another kick-start to keep our economy growing, and not continue to cut back as the GOP would have us do.

General Motors and Ford are now making strong progress towards more growth. I was critical of our government saving these two commercial enterprises, because I have always felt that bad management of companies should not survive. I was wrong; both companies are helping our economy recover from the Great Recession. It's the correct direction for our government, because saving GM and Ford also saved all the jobs not only at their company directly, but the sub-contractors and sales division all across this world. It was a wise move by Obama.
0 Replies
 
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 10:55 am
So tell me C.I, if your carefree and irresponsible daughter ran up a massive debt on her credit card, but would put the staff at the shoe shop on short time if she stopped spending there in an effort to cut her unaffordable debt, would you tell her that she was wrong and to go and buy another three pairs of Jimmy Choos?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 10:58 am
@Old Goat,
Old Goat, Your question has no relevance. Personal debt and national debt are as different as apples and carrots. Think. What do you think our country did during WWII? Without growing our debt, we would have lost the war. Are you suggesting we ignore these truths?
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:06 am
@cicerone imposter,
I don't see any Nazi invasion happening at the moment, and I think that the Pacific countries are not under any real threat, but what I DO see is countries like Greece playing fast and loose with their money for years without ever thinking of the consequences.

Well, now it's all come back to bite them on the bum and the rest of us are having to bail them out.
What the loan people are saying is exactly what the average parent would say to the Jimmy Choo addict.....I'll loan you the money, but you've got to promise that you'll seriously get your finances in order.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:07 am
@Old Goat,
The Nazi invasion that you seem to overlook is the Great Recession that is threatening our security.

Your one-dimensional parroting of the GOP meme lacks understanding of economics.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 11:08 am
@Old Goat,
I think it's a little fallacious to assume that all the spending which led to the deficit and debt are similar to an expensive pair or three of shoes. A lot of it has been ran up because we are in a large recession and that's what happens when you suddenly find yourself short on money. It would be more accurate to compare it to your daughter having lost her job a year ago, and being forced to put things like rent and food on the credit card.

Cycloptichorn
 

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