114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 12:26 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
I guess that's why the best argument you ever came up with against him is your ad-hominem slurs about his looks. (You've been repeating them since at least 2004.)


Is that true? What does george look like? Is he so hot that he has to walk down the street, accompanied by two men who hold black belts in karate lest mobs of women attack him in their quest to rip off his clothes?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 06:09 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I don't claim to understand all the details of the competing economic models here, but I do note that many serious economists are indeed predicting significantly increased inflation in the coming years. My company is planning on it in our capital allocation decisions, and I believe many others are as well.

But not so many of the ones who put their money where their mouth is. By going to Bloomberg.com and subtracting the yield on inflation-indexed Treasury bonds from the yield on plain-vanilla Treasury bonds, you can measure how much inflation the bond market expects. This morning, it turns out to expect an average 1.4% over the next 5 years, an average 2.4% over the next 10 years, and an average 2.5% over the next 30 years. Nothing to write home about.

I notice you haven't answered my question though: How may more years of non-inflation, or of historically-normal inflation, would it take for you to accept you're refuted?

georgeob1 wrote:
My understanding of economic history suggests that when public debt gets as high as it has here in the past few years, inflation is the likely result, both as a result of central bank actions and the government's need to dilute the burden of its debt (by deflating the holdings of all its monetary savers).

And that's your understanding of whose economic history? Certainly not America's. America's economic history has seen four huge spikes of government debt: After the War of Independence, after the Civil War, after World War II, and after Ronald Reagan. Now look at America's inflation data, helpfully compiled by two economics professors at the University of Illinois. After the war of independence, America has seen both inflation and deflation, for an average of about 1.5% inflation from 1783 to 1813. The Civil War was followed by deflation, not inflation. World War II and Ronald Reagan were followed by historically-normal rates of inflation. On what understanding of American history is inflation "the likely result" of high government debt?

georgeob1 wrote:
Anyone who uses the recent transient improvement of the unemployment rate in Michigan from 14% to 10% as evidence of the rebirth of American manufacturing competitiveness is either incredibly naive or being deliberately deceitful (and likely hasn't visited Flint or Detroit in a very long time).

You are assuming that the recovery in employment is transient. You offer no evidence that it is. How is your evidence-free prejudice good enough to accuse other people of naiveté or deceit? How does that not show Krugman's supporters aren't the unthinking ones here?
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:10 am
As I drove home quite late last night, I heard a figure on NPR as to how many times the federal debt ceiling was raised in the past 50 years. I believe it was 78 times. That means the debt ceiling is truly a moveable feast.

This is from The Huffington Post:

How many times has the debt ceiling been raised under Bush?

Answer:
Seven times.
From a Sept 2008 cbs story: "Buried deep in the hundred pages of bailout legislatio n is a provision that would raise the statutory ceiling on the national debt to $11.315 trillion. It'll be the 7th time the debt limit has been raised during this administra tion. In fact it was just two months ago, on July 30, that President Bush signed the Housing and Economic Recovery Act, which contained a provision raising the debt ceiling to $10.615 trillion."

None of you Right Wing cIowns complained and you probably didn't even notice.”
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:51 am
@plainoldme,
That's for dang sure! They probably live their own lives that way too; they can't see their own "sins."
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:57 am
@cicerone imposter,
I think its the mental equivalent of being unable to find your ass with either hand.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 09:52 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Is it inflation driving up gas prices, per se?

Well, of course you're right, but the person who's out looking for a third job so he can pay for the gas to drive to his other two jobs is probably just lumping high gas and food prices into one theory --- inflation.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 10:24 am
@Irishk,
There's an interesting article in today's newspaper about the current "inflation." It said 76% of seniors are now having great difficulty with their finances. That's scary.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 10:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
Is it online?

As I think rjb pointed out not long ago, those relying on SS will get a COLA raise for the first time in about 3 years, but that will be pretty much wiped out by the rise in their Medicare premium.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 12:57 pm
@Irishk,
No. But I made a copy. Here:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/img035.jpg
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 01:10 pm
People being persuaded to spend money we don't have, on things we don't need, to create impressions that won't last, on people we don't care about."

Could this be where the US economy is headed?

Tim Jackson's economic reality check

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZsp_EdO2Xk&feature=related


0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 04:10 pm
Niall Ferguson seems to have a realistic view of where the US economy is headed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPBp3e6t7Ik&feature=related
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 08:02 pm
Nobody likes to know that the truth is bad news do they? Did I share false info with you, if so please explain so that I will know!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 08:35 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
My understanding of economic history suggests that when public debt gets as high as it has here in the past few years, inflation is the likely result, both as a result of central bank actions and the government's need to dilute the burden of its debt (by deflating the holdings of all its monetary savers).

And that's your understanding of whose economic history? Certainly not America's. America's economic history has seen four huge spikes of government debt: After the War of Independence, after the Civil War, after World War II, and after Ronald Reagan. Now look at America's inflation data, helpfully compiled by two economics professors at the University of Illinois. After the war of independence, America has seen both inflation and deflation, for an average of about 1.5% inflation from 1783 to 1813. The Civil War was followed by deflation, not inflation. World War II and Ronald Reagan were followed by historically-normal rates of inflation. On what understanding of American history is inflation "the likely result" of high government debt?

There are very significant differences in the four periods in your recitation. Our economic growth in the first three instances after the revolution, civil war, and WWII respectively each involved periods of unusually rapid economic expansion, though each for different reasons. The boom in railroad construction and the rapid opening of the west for both settlement and the exploitation of readily available natural resources after the Civil war; and the post WWII boom in which we had virtually the world's only undevastated manufacturing plant with which to meet pent up demand. Both of these were profoundly different situations than the one we face today. Unlike these periods, I see no potential for economic growth sufficient to overtake the rate at which public debt has been increasing in the coming years. Inflation will be the likely result.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 11:24 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
There are very significant differences in the four periods in your recitation.

Yet they all have in common that they didn't experience any unusual inflation. Your original claim was that history shows high government debt is followed by inflation---yet in America's history, it never was. One can always rationalize why ones confident pronouncements about history flatly contradict the historical record. But that doesn't make the pronouncements right. At best it makes them understandably wrong.

I'll make one last try to get an answer to the question I asked you in my last two posts: What evidence does it take until you accept you are wrong? I'm asking because I'm beginning to suspect that you have sealed your ideology off against evidence. Indeed, in the last couple of years, you have turned into a conservative mirror image of Redheat at Abuzz. Remember Redheat? You and her used to talk politics and economics a lot. And she, too, had hermetically sealed off her (liberal) views against the evidence you presented to her back then.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 11:37 pm
Does it seem to you that the only time Republicans think the growing national debt is a problem is when they're not the ones running it up?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 01:20 pm
@Thomas,
Hey, Thomas, you have a good memory! However, what I wanted to say was your thesis about deficits and inflation is spot on. They dynamics of economic analysis is very difficult, because the many variables that control inflation and deflation cannot be controlled.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 04:00 pm
@Thomas,
I remember readheat, but not a lot about our discussions.

I don't believe the future state of multivariable systems describable by highly non-linear parabolic differential equations is predictable at all. That applies to viscous fluid flows; interactive planetary movements, the monetary measures of economic activity and many other such dynamical systems. The best we can do with such systems is to predict crude estimates of their average behavior over extended periods, and even that is unreliable (e.g. the farmer's almanac)..

In keeping with this I do not believe the three examples you cite are proof of any reliable or even knowable law. The number of variables that influence the outcomes is large and there is no indication that the three examples even come close to spanning the space of such influences. In particular I believe that the post Civil wat and post WWII booms were likely dominated by unique and unusual variables - as I noted above.

I am aware that governments plagued by large public debt and politically unwilling or unable to deal with the underlying causes of the continued accumulation of debt at a greater relative rate than the growth of their economies usually suffer some kind of collapse, and that very high inflation is commonly associated with it - though not necessarily inevitable in special circumstances (e.g. Greece & the Euro). I'm quite sure you are aware of numerous such examples of such inflation, including some less-than-catastrophic ones in the history of the last century.

I do not believe that these facts and observations establish that I am immune to evidence at all, though they do suggest that you may be a little too inclined to accept small statistical samples as establishing a rule in such non linear dynamic systems.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 04:14 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I don't believe the future state of multivariable systems describable by highly non-linear parabolic differential equations is predictable at all.


Doesn't seem to stop you from predicting inflation in our near future though, based solely on the variable of our high debt.

Inflation fears are way overstated at the moment; in large part because individuals aren't very good at predicting inflation rates.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/05/23/fed-research-inflation-expectations-overly-sensitive-to-food-energy-prices/

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/FX-AA250_FXInfl_E_20110523123400.png

I would note that even if the inflation rate were to DOUBLE what it currently is, we would STILL be lower than the average of the 1980's.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 04:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, I would piggy-back on your graph on perception vs reality to the extent that a doubling of inflation at this time in our economy would be devastating for the majority of Americans. The jobless rate is an indication of difficult times for many still working and seniors who must live on fixed incomes and very small savings - while the cost of fuel and food eat up more of their current liquidity.

Those who have secure jobs and or enough savings to survive these times are the lucky ones, and I dare say they are in the very small minority of Americans. 78% of seniors are now struggling.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 05:41 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I do not believe that these facts and observations establish that I am immune to evidence at all, though they do suggest that you may be a little too inclined to accept small statistical samples as establishing a rule in such non linear dynamic systems.

I didn't use a small statistical sample to establish a rule. I used a small statistical sample to refute a rule. You were the one claiming the existence of the rule. ("High government debt has historically led to inflation.") And what's more, my sample wasn't even a sample: It contained all the major bursts in America's public debt.
0 Replies
 
 

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