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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:22 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Hokie, Whoever produced that show missed "Sicko." There are many Americans who are refused treatment (period).


Did you learn that from Michael Moore?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:30 pm
Yes. Disprove his claim.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:31 pm
I know Sicko is biased, but I doubt very much he lied. You need to prove he lied.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yes. Disprove his claim.


There are a couple of ongoing threads, I think, regarding the subject. Of course, if you make that statement there, you may be asked to provide other sources that "there are many Americans who are refused medical treatment, period."

I haven't seen his "film", so I don't know in what context he said it, if he did.

Anyway, probably you should take those types of comments to the other threads.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:46 pm
Well, Hokie, FYI, you're the one that posted a link on the uninsured.

Health insurance happens to be directly related to this topic.


okie wrote:
I don't know about uninsured. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. I simply asked how many uninsured are not citizens?

The misleading information has to do with poverty numbers. The Census Bureau uses income before taxes and does not include the huge tax credits given to low income workers and their families.

Hokie wrote:
Okie - the "uninsured" is not as cut and dried as it appears. See this clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uKCWbq18bNk

The non-citizens that are uninsured would equal about half of Canada's total population, I think.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ci wrote:
Hokie, Whoever produced that show missed "Sicko." There are many Americans who are refused treatment (period).

hokie, If you want to bring it to another thread, you are free to do so, but health care belongs to this subject we ae discussing.

0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:50 pm
So you think insured/uninsured healthcare translates somehow to 'treatment'?

You made the statement that "many Americans are refused medical treatment", so it's incumbent upon you to prove that point. Your only source, however, seems to be Michael Moore.

Or do you have links from reputable sources to support your claim?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:54 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
okie wrote:
I don't know about uninsured. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. I simply asked how many uninsured are not citizens?

The misleading information has to do with poverty numbers. The Census Bureau uses income before taxes and does not include the huge tax credits given to low income workers and their families.


Jeez, you're right. Those 3-5k that they get back on their taxes really pull those families right up into the middle class. Don't know why anyone ever thinks of themselves as poor, obviously everyone has plenty of money to go around for everything they need.

Cycloptichorn

Go ahead and be sarcastic, but 5 grand at the end of the year for somebody that makes around 20 grand is important, and likely would kick a significant number of people above the poverty line. Since these larger credits are more than they used to be, then poverty statistics for now compared to 30 years ago are therefore inaccurate in my opinion.

Maybe 5 grand means nothing to you, cyclops, but if you have an extra 5 grand lying around, give it to somebody that needs it. After all, you don't have to have your beloved government confiscate it through taxes, as you can do it voluntarily.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 06:54 pm
Yes. Many uninsured in the US are refused treatment; that's the message of Moore's movie. However, there is a federal law that no hospital in the US can refuse to treat anybody that shows up in their emergency room. All they must do is "stabilize" the patient, and let them go.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:00 pm
HokieBird wrote:
okie wrote:
I don't know about uninsured. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. I simply asked how many uninsured are not citizens?

The misleading information has to do with poverty numbers. The Census Bureau uses income before taxes and does not include the huge tax credits given to low income workers and their families.


Okie - the "uninsured" is not as cut and dried as it appears. See this clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uKCWbq18bNk

The non-citizens that are uninsured would equal about half of Canada's total population, I think.


Interesting, HokieBird. And undoubtedly more credible than Michael Moore. I would have no interest in his "documentary," which is an insult to the word, "documentary."
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:01 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yes. Many uninsured in the US are refused treatment; that's the message of Moore's movie. However, there is a federal law that no hospital in the US can refuse to treat anybody that shows up in their emergency room. All they must do is "stabilize" the patient, and let them go.


Laughing Yes. And Cuba is a virtual healthcare paradise. (According to Mikey).
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:04 pm
okie wrote:
HokieBird wrote:
okie wrote:
I don't know about uninsured. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. I simply asked how many uninsured are not citizens?

The misleading information has to do with poverty numbers. The Census Bureau uses income before taxes and does not include the huge tax credits given to low income workers and their families.


Okie - the "uninsured" is not as cut and dried as it appears. See this clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uKCWbq18bNk

The non-citizens that are uninsured would equal about half of Canada's total population, I think.


Interesting, HokieBird. And undoubtedly more credible than Michael Moore. I would have no interest in his "documentary," which is an insult to the word, "documentary."


I think even Michael Moore would concede that his 'other' film, F9/11, played an important role in getting Bush elected in 2004. We'll have to see how many Moore is able to dupe with this current effort. A Canadian doctor has already commented that Moore plays fast and loose with his "facts' LOL.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:05 pm
Compared to the US, yes. If you challenge what Moore claims in the film, please show evidence that it isn't what he claims. I'd be interested in seeing your "truth." Have a nice trip to Cuba.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:07 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Compared to the US, yes. If you challenge what Moore claims in the film, please show evidence that it isn't what he claims. I'd be interested in seeing your "truth." Have a nice trip to Cuba.


No, thanks. I'll leave you to your little 'fantasy' island of believing Moore. He, after all, has such a great track record with 'fair and balanced' Smile
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:09 pm
HokieBird wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Compared to the US, yes. If you challenge what Moore claims in the film, please show evidence that it isn't what he claims. I'd be interested in seeing your "truth." Have a nice trip to Cuba.


No, thanks. I'll leave you to your little 'fantasy' island of believing Moore. He, after all, has such a great track record with 'fair and balanced' Smile


He does have a good track record with factual accuracy.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:12 pm
Hokie, You're claiming that Moore's film is untrue, but please show us where and how? All you are doing is presenting your negative opinion without identifying what he shows are lies. Exactly what part of Moore's film are lies? Please be specific; generalities mean nothing.

If you want to be critical, at least have evidence of what you are talking about rather than one "doctor." More than 70% of Canadians are happy with their health care system according to a national poll. One doctor's opinion means zilch.

If you want to believe what one doctor says, please present his position, what he's complaining about, and show proof of his specific complaint (not generalities like your's).
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:27 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Hokie, You're claiming that Moore's film is untrue, but please show us where and how? All you are doing is presenting your negative opinion without identifying what he shows are lies. Exactly what part of Moore's film are lies? Please be specific; generalities mean nothing.

If you want to be critical, at least have evidence of what you are talking about rather than one "doctor." More than 70% of Canadians are happy with their health care system according to a national poll. One doctor's opinion means zilch.

If you want to believe what one doctor says, please present his position, what he's complaining about, and show proof of his specific complaint (not generalities like your's).


No. I addressed your claim about 'treatment'. You said you learned it from Moore. I think we can all agree he presents his own opinions in rather biased form.

Beyond believing Moore, you have not presented any other proof to back up either your or his claims, so stop demanding results from others.

I have not seen Sicko and probably won't (unless it airs on cable - which I already pay for LOL), but Moore has discussed his film numerous times in the recent past.

Again, if you are gullible enough to accept all he spews, that's your problem. There's plenty of time to fisk his lies and half-truths if a real debate opens up during the campaign. Unlike you, most Americans, I think are going to want more than "Ooooooooh...I heard it from Mikey Moore" so it, like, must be true.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:36 pm
okie wrote:

Go ahead and be sarcastic, but 5 grand at the end of the year for somebody that makes around 20 grand is important, and likely would kick a significant number of people above the poverty line. Since these larger credits are more than they used to be, then poverty statistics for now compared to 30 years ago are therefore inaccurate in my opinion.

Maybe 5 grand means nothing to you, cyclops, but if you have an extra 5 grand lying around, give it to somebody that needs it. After all, you don't have to have your beloved government confiscate it through taxes, as you can do it voluntarily.

One major problem with your argument okie..

Quote:
Income used to compute poverty status:


Money income


Includes earnings, unemployment compensation, workers' compensation, Social Security, Supplemental Security Income, public assistance, veterans' payments, survivor benefits, pension or retirement income, interest, dividends, rents, royalties, income from estates, trusts, educational assistance, alimony, child support, assistance from outside the household, and other miscellaneous sources.

Noncash benefits (such as food stamps and housing subsidies) do not count.


Before taxes.


Excludes capital gains or losses.


http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/povdef.html#1

No one making 20K would get $5,000 in tax credits but if they did it would count as income for figuring poverty. So your argument is factually incorrect on many counts okie. You shouldn't claim you disproved anything when you don't have any facts to back up your claims.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 08:24 pm
Hokie, I have said often that Moore's film is biased. That doesn't mean he lied. Since you're the one that's challenging his claims, you must prove them to be wrong. Do you understand anything about logic?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 08:26 pm
Hokie, You say you haven't seen his film, but claim he lied. That's pure ignorance.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 08:35 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Hokie, I have said often that Moore's film is biased. That doesn't mean he lied. Since you're the one that's challenging his claims, you must prove them to be wrong. Do you understand anything about logic?


Once again. I challenged your claim. You've already admitted you have no other source but Moore. Enough said.
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