Where is the US economy headed?

@okie,

What is the ethical issue? Do you have proof? Show me?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

You are some ignoramus who doesn't understand much of anything.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Quote:

Looting America: Treasury Secretary Paulson Threatened Senators with Martial Law

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/looting-america-treasury-secretary-paulson-threatened-senators-martial-law/9576

See how Treasury Secretary helped loot America

1 Reply

@talk72000,

talk72000 wrote:

The land is government property and the minerals under it should belong to the people. Many oilmen became rich from the oil because the oil under the land came under private ownership instead of government ownership. In other countries all the minerals under the ground is government owned. So the US Government is subsidizing the oil industry and people like you in the mineral business by not taking over the minerals found in lands.

The government does not own all private land, and in fact private land ownership is one of the cornerstones of America and the Constitution, and why the country has been so successful. Also, your post is entirely ignorant of the fact that in regard to government owned land, the government also leases property out for oil and gas development, as well as for coal, just as private owners of property do the same, so that they / we can reap the benefits of lease payments and royalties.

In the case of minerals, you are correct, we as a country decided that it was to the benefit of the entire country to allow claims to be staked and minerals to be explored for and mined on much public lands, which was integral to developing this country into one of the richest and most industrially advanced nationws on the face of the earth. I suspect however that the 1872 Mining Law may be repealed to go more to a lease and royalty situation. As I said though, the 1872 Mining Law brought about gold rushes and other related industrial booms to many areas of the country, especially the American West.

In the case of private lands, leases and royalties are required to explore for and mine minerals. Also, parks, wilderness areas, military reservations, and many other government owned areas, they are all pretty much off limits to any oil and gas or minerals exploration or development.

1 Reply

@okie,

The land above should belong to the individual but what is under it should belong to the people.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

What is the ethical issue? Do you have proof? Show me?

This is amply provided in the posts already on record here. Cyclops has admitted that he uses university provided office space and their computer or computers to spend time posting his personal political opinions here. I doubt very seriously that furthering his liberal political agenda on taxpayer supported equipment is ethical or proper, ci. You live in California, and surely you know your state is essentially broke? If cyclops practice is common practice, perhaps that is one of the reasons you are broke? Has that ever occurred to you?

By the way, the only proof I have is what cyclops himself has said, and what common sense would tell us.

1 Reply

@talk72000,

talk72000 wrote:

The land above should belong to the individual but what is under it should belong to the people.

Mineral rights are also property, which go with the surface property. Thanks to the oil and gas development all across America, many farms and ranches have been saved from financial disaster. I have personally witnessed that in Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, and other places. Thanks to the oil and gas development, it has kept farms and ranches in the hands of the less wealthy and kept them out of the hands of the super wealthy and developers. It keeps the land with people that really care for the land and will take care of it. I think it has perhaps saved much land from being developed into strip malls and housing developments. We already have enough of that.

3 Replies

@okie,

I guess that proves that government creates wealth, eh okie?

Surely you know the Oklahoma land rush was a result of government.

1 Reply

@okie,

The oil industry led to this financial meltdown by having oil executives - GWB and Dick Cheney - invade Iraq for its oil. The deficit and debt from the war over eight years made GWB start the Home Ownership Porgram that led to the Mortgage based Certificates that created the meltdown.

0 Replies

@okie,

Resources on private property (with the exception of water in prior appropriation and water rights states) are jointly the property of the landowner and state unless previously re assigned by contract. In PA, the new gas drilling has enabled many farmers to catch up on their debts and actually begin farming with a clean slate.

The states do have a financial interest and all states(With the exception of PA0 have extraction fees and taxes payable to the landowner and the state.
The 1872 mining law needs updating so that we arent giving away the resource. Fortunately oil and gas post date most of the initial requirements of the law and the values are established by an entirely new generation of uses.

1 Reply

@parados,

There was no wealth there until homesteaders put in years of sweat and toil into farming and ranching the land. As usual, you give the wrong people the credit. It has been the American people, not the government, that have made this country great. The government can only create the right atmosphere to allow us citizens to thrive with our hard work and toil. That is the problem we have now, Obama is not providing the right atmosphere.

4 Replies

@okie,

Quote:

Obama is not providing the right atmosphere.

In Pa, its the GOP majority that is holding up the legislation on the extraction fees. They just want to take everything down.

0 Replies

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Resources on private property (with the exception of water in prior appropriation and water rights states) are jointly the property of the landowner and state unless previously re assigned by contract. In PA, the new gas drilling has enabled many farmers to catch up on their debts and actually begin farming with a clean slate.

The states do have a financial interest and all states(With the exception of PA0 have extraction fees and taxes payable to the landowner and the state.
The 1872 mining law needs updating so that we arent giving away the resource. Fortunately oil and gas post date most of the initial requirements of the law and the values are established by an entirely new generation of uses.

Agreed, farmerman, and one other point, when landowners receive payment for leases and royalties for oil, gas, and other minerals, the government, and all of us, are benefited by increased income tax revenues as well.

The land being owned and operated by private citizens prevents taxpayers from having to manage and pay for the management of those lands. I have seen cases of a State adding great amounts of land to their state parks system, and all it does is increase management and state expenditures, plus it takes the land out of private ownership, thus reducing the tax revenues taken in to support schools and other state run essentials. I am convinced that a healthy economy depends upon keeping as much land and minerals ownership in private hands. The result is better management, lower government expenditures, and higher tax revenues.

1 Reply

@okie,

Who do you think the government? King George W. Bush?

0 Replies

@okie,

Most states and local governments "are essentially broke." To fix this problem is not by how the likes of Cyclo does or doesn't do his job properly; he has a supervisor who has that responsibility.

Your charge about ethical behavior on the part of Cyclo is based on ignorance. Your worries and challenges are based on nothing more than your own imagination that always seems to run on overdrive.

GW Bush lost track of billions in Iraq during that war. That's where our government failed us; not Cyclo's job at UC Berkeley.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Most states and local governments "are essentially broke." To fix this problem is not by how the likes of Cyclo does or doesn't do his job properly; he has a supervisor who has that responsibility.

Your charge about ethical behavior on the part of Cyclo is based on ignorance. Your worries and challenges are based on nothing more than your own imagination that always seems to run on overdrive.

GW Bush lost track of billions in Iraq during that war. That's where our government failed us; not Cyclo's job at UC Berkeley.

Sorry, but I never claimed Cyclops actions were responsible for the entire problem of debt in government, nor did I ever say a change in his behavior would solve the entire problem. I did try to make the point that it is a mindset similar to his, that of entitlement and abuse of taxpayer interests as being a part of the problem that has gotten us into this mess. I suggest you read the post by Spendius, in which he basically agrees, and makes the point that such has been predicted for a long time.
http://able2know.org/topic/47327-621#post-4380023

Quote:

Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson has a lengthy passage on such a matter okie. It relates to the relaxation of the rules on vicious intromission because many breaches of that law were thought trivial. It referred to interference in a deceased person's goods without lawful authority.

It is on pages 199 --201 of my ancient Blackwood edition relating to the year 1772. Johnson predicts the same dangers you have done.

I can assure you that the practices you refer to are not only widespread but embrace much more serious misappropriations than you considered. A culture of relaxation of the law on the basis of triviality might well be a significant cause of the financial crisis. Especially when combined with a general contempt of religious precepts.

1 Reply

@okie,

Taxpayer interests? You've got to be kidding! It's only extremists like you who worry about other people's job behavior. How many times must I remind you that Cyclo has a supervisor who is responsible for his job; not you.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Taxpayer interests? You've got to be kidding! It's only extremists like you who worry about other people's job behavior. How many times must I remind you that Cyclo has a supervisor who is responsible for his job; not you.

You are the one that has got to be kidding. I do not think what cyclops is doing is real bad, but it is mildly unethical. I do not think the State of California or the university should be allowing their employees to do much personal stuff on their computers, especially political stuff, no way, ci. Now, if cyclops was working for a private business, it would be different. In fact, I own a business and I have given my employees authority to do some personal stuff on my computers as long as their work is done. Actually, after the main work is done, their main job is to answer the phones from customers, which they can do while playing on the computer anyway, so I will not have lost anything. Also, and this is important as well, I own this business outright with no other owners, but if I was merely a manager inside of a corporation that had stockholders, I believe my primary responsibility would be to the stockholders and therefore I would make those decsions about what employees did - in the best interests of the stockholders.

Here is my bottom line. If I was cyclops boss and knew that the university and the State were funding his job and the office equipment, I would instruct him not to use the computer for any political activities whatsoever. Now, if all of his work was done, he should possibly just go home. If he needed to stay there for other reasons, such as receive phone calls for official business, then I might allow him to use the computer for very minimal use to pass the time, such as emailing contacts of his for totally non-political purposes, but political stuff should be off limits. The reason I would manage it that way is because I think government employees need to set a high standard of ethics, and I don't think they are currently meeting the standard in many cases.

I have a friend that works for the state, and he has to have a computer to do his job, to schedule jobs, and to check regs for inspections, etc., but it is strictly for work, thats it. If he has any personal computing to do, he does it at home.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

It's only extremists like you who worry about other people's job behavior.

Another comment about this. If I think ethics are important for government employees, that makes me an extremist? You have to be kidding, ci? If not, that certainly says alot about what is wrong with this country anymore.

2 Replies

@okie,

The minerals weren't under the ground okie?
Who gave those minerals to the homesteaders? I think you are confused okie because hard work didn't create the minerals nor did hard work by the homesteaders allow them to sell those mineral rights.

1 Reply

Where is the US economy headed?

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