Where is the US economy headed?

@okie,

okie wrote:

One point to you, cyclops, to control wages by the government, one of the first things I would do is bring guys like Franklin Raines in to testify before Congress, encourage him to give back his tens of millions he received while he was cooking the books. Also, if he ended up being convicted of fraud, as I think he probably was involved in, he should sit in jail just like the Enron folks have done. At least we should make an example of the lawbreakers in government related jobs, so that future criminal activity would be discouraged. That would be a good start. How about it cyclops? You surely share my belief that we should demand an honest government to serve us? After all, we are paying them to do it.

Well, I of course agree with this. The question is - how far down this rabbit hole are YOU willing to go, Okie? Because we both know that top members of BOTH parties are tied up in corruption and bribery. Are you willing to stick to your guns to get rid of this crap - or are you only interested in prosecuting Democrats?

I should also point out that you can't investigate this stuff without putting money into it. Hard to claim that you are serious about investigating crimes, when you say that the people who do it are useless or non-essential and you don't think they deserve a raise - even if they did a good job.

On that topic: I am a government employee, though only by a remove, as I work for a Law School. We get a lot of money from the State so it's fair to say that. I haven't had a raise in 3 years and in fact I had a 5% pay cut for last fiscal year. I didn't complain once about this, because we are low on money and I understand how the world works. But, do you think I don't deserve a raise? That I am 'useless or wasteful?' Remember that when you are talking about stuff like that, you are talking about actual people - like me.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, I of course agree with this. The question is - how far down this rabbit hole are YOU willing to go, Okie? Because we both know that top members of BOTH parties are tied up in corruption and bribery. Are you willing to stick to your guns to get rid of this crap - or are you only interested in prosecuting Democrats?

I am interested in rooting out all corruption, but only if it is applied in a non-partisan manner. I am tired of Republicans being targeted while Dems receive a pass.

Quote:

I should also point out that you can't investigate this stuff without putting money into it. Hard to claim that you are serious about investigating crimes, when you say that the people who do it are useless or non-essential and you don't think they deserve a raise - even if they did a good job.

I happen to think they are probably already being paid adequately, but that they simply need to do their job.

Quote:

On that topic: I am a government employee, though only by a remove, as I work for a Law School. We get a lot of money from the State so it's fair to say that. I haven't had a raise in 3 years and in fact I had a 5% pay cut for last fiscal year. I didn't complain once about this, because we are low on money and I understand how the world works. But, do you think I don't deserve a raise? That I am 'useless or wasteful?' Remember that when you are talking about stuff like that, you are talking about actual people - like me.
Cycloptichorn

So you are one of the reasons California is going broke? Since you are on this forum almost all the time, a serious question arises. Are you doing much of this forum work on law school work time? Great question, because if you are, it seems to me that it is a tremendous conflict of interest, and besides being a waste of time, and you are getting paid by taxpayers for basically doing political work for the Democrats. Perhaps even what you are doing might be criminal, cyclops, have you considered that? For example, if you were a federal employee and using a computer that tax dollars purchased to essentially campaign online for the Democrats, I think that would be illegal, and I see no difference between whether you are working for the feds or for the State of California, the same principle would apply.

I don't know what answer you will give, cyclops, but is it possible I have in fact sniffed out a criminal right here on this forum, that is misusing and abusing tax dollars to carry on political activities? If I am wrong on this, correct me and I will gladly withdraw any accusation.

To set the record straight about my own participation here, I own all of my own computers, I do not work for the government, or anyone else for that matter, as I am self employed and have been for more than 20 years now. I am not being paid at all by anyone for spending time here or offering my opinions here. It is only for my own personal enjoyment, or I should say it is more of a diversion and it allows me to let off steam than it is enjoyment. I do learn alot, but generally it is due to looking up stuff all the time to find out facts and ammunition for the debate, I seldom learn anything useful from liberals here. Laughing

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

This last paragraph of yours, cyclops, I am going to quote again because I think it might be very important, along with my response again.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

On that topic: I am a government employee, though only by a remove, as I work for a Law School. We get a lot of money from the State so it's fair to say that. I haven't had a raise in 3 years and in fact I had a 5% pay cut for last fiscal year. I didn't complain once about this, because we are low on money and I understand how the world works. But, do you think I don't deserve a raise? That I am 'useless or wasteful?' Remember that when you are talking about stuff like that, you are talking about actual people - like me.
Cycloptichorn

So you are one of the reasons California is going broke? Since you are on this forum almost all the time, a serious question arises. Are you doing much of this forum work on law school work time? Great question, because if you are, it seems to me that it is a tremendous conflict of interest, and besides being a waste of time, you are getting paid by taxpayers for basically doing political work for the Democrats. Perhaps even what you are doing might be criminal, cyclops, have you considered that? For example, if you were a federal employee and using a computer that tax dollars purchased to essentially campaign online for the Democrats, I think that would be illegal, and I see no difference between whether you are working for the feds or for the State of California, the same principle would apply.

I don't know what answer you will give, cyclops, but is it possible I have in fact sniffed out a criminal right here on this forum, that is misusing and abusing tax dollars to carry on political activities? If I am wrong on this, correct me and I will gladly withdraw any accusation.

To set the record straight about my own participation here, I own all of my own computers, I do not work for the government, or anyone else for that matter, as I am self employed and have been for more than 20 years now. I am not being paid at all by anyone for spending time here or offering my opinions here. It is only for my own personal enjoyment, or I should say it is more of a diversion and it allows me to let off steam than it is enjoyment. I do learn alot, but generally it is due to looking up stuff all the time to find out facts and ammunition for the debate, I seldom learn anything useful from liberals here. Laughing

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

This last paragraph of yours, cyclops, I am going to quote again because I think it might be very important, along with my response again.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

On that topic: I am a government employee, though only by a remove, as I work for a Law School. We get a lot of money from the State so it's fair to say that. I haven't had a raise in 3 years and in fact I had a 5% pay cut for last fiscal year. I didn't complain once about this, because we are low on money and I understand how the world works. But, do you think I don't deserve a raise? That I am 'useless or wasteful?' Remember that when you are talking about stuff like that, you are talking about actual people - like me.
Cycloptichorn

So you are one of the reasons California is going broke? Since you are on this forum almost all the time, a serious question arises. Are you doing much of this forum work on law school work time? Great question, because if you are, it seems to me that it is a tremendous conflict of interest, and besides being a waste of time, you are getting paid by taxpayers for basically doing political work for the Democrats. Perhaps even what you are doing might be criminal, cyclops, have you considered that? For example, if you were a federal employee and using a computer that tax dollars purchased to essentially campaign online for the Democrats, I think that would be illegal, and I see no difference between whether you are working for the feds or for the State of California, the same principle would apply.

The nature of my job doesn't require regular office hours, nor am I paid by the hour, so it's not accurate to say that I'm 'on company time.' Company time is whenever I want it to be. Pretty much solves that entire paragraph.

Not only that, I take exception to the statement that I am one of the reasons California is 'going broke.' My job is in part to help my Law School find ways to save money. We've cut spending by a half million dollars in the last two years thanks directly to programs I worked on or in a few cases, headed.

Quote:

I don't know what answer you will give, cyclops, but is it possible I have in fact sniffed out a criminal right here on this forum, that is misusing and abusing tax dollars to carry on political activities? If I am wrong on this, correct me and I will gladly withdraw any accusation.

Ooh, a criminal! Rolling Eyes

Expressing your opinions online in a discussion forum isn't 'campaigning,' Okie. Words don't mean whatever you want them to.

Why don't you try actually addressing the questions I posed, instead of going on some sort of McCarthyite witch hunt? Do you think that I am a waste, that my job is a waste, that people you don't know anything about are a waste - that they don't deserve the things you do? That they don't deserve raises, even if they do a good job?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The nature of my job doesn't require regular regular office hours, nor am I paid by the hour, so it's not accurate to say that I'm 'on company time.' Company time is whenever I want it to be. Pretty much solves that entire paragraph.
Cycloptichorn

I am not going to let you off the hook that easy. Do you use taxpayer funded computers or computer at a taxpayer funded office or location other than your own residence to participate on this forum and further your liberal Democratic political views? I am depending upon you to tell the truth. Even though we disagree tremendously, I have perceived you as fairly honest, so I am hoping for an honest answer.

Another question added here, since you are not paid by the hour you say, are you on a salary, does that mean that virtually all the time you spend at your place of work is ostensibly for the benefit of your employer? For example, I used to work on a salary, and I was on call virtually 24 hours a day if necessary to get the job done, and if I was at the company office, I was not there to do my own personal stuff. Nor could I drive the company vehicle for personal use.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The nature of my job doesn't require regular regular office hours, nor am I paid by the hour, so it's not accurate to say that I'm 'on company time.' Company time is whenever I want it to be. Pretty much solves that entire paragraph.
Cycloptichorn

I am not going to let you off the hook that easy. Do you use taxpayer funded computers or computer at a taxpayer funded office or location other than your own residence to participate on this forum and further your liberal Democratic political views? I am depending upon you to tell the truth. Even though we disagree tremendously, I have perceived you as fairly honest, so I am hoping for an honest answer.

I sometimes post from my office, yes; but there's hardly anything either illegal or immoral about that, Okie. If you think there is, you ought to bone up - by which I mean, learn a single thing about in the first place - on campaign finance laws.

Before you get your panties in a bunch on the other end, I'd also point out that schools are not classified as 'government employees' per the traditional definition.

Let me circle back to the original point: Do you think that I am a waste, that my job is a waste, that people you don't know anything about are a waste - that they don't deserve the things you do? That they don't deserve raises, even if they do a good job?

I brought this up to highlight your irrational damning of people who you don't even know as 'useless.' The truth is that you don't know anything about who these people are, what they do, how it helps the country. How it helps you or me. Yet you knock them in the same post that you bitch about your relatives not getting more money from the government. And for what? Why do they deserve more, but people who are actually working, don't? How do you reconcile this?

Quote:

Another question added here, since you are not paid by the hour you say, are you on a salary, does that mean that virtually all the time you spend at your place of work is ostensibly for the benefit of your employer? For example, I used to work on a salary, and I was on call virtually 24 hours a day if necessary to get the job done, and if I was at the company office, I was not there to do my own personal stuff. Nor could I drive the company vehicle for personal use.

My office is mine to use for whatever I like it to be used for. As long as my tasks for my school get done, that's all that matters. I suppose my job gives me somewhat more freedom than yours did Laughing

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Okie, I think your posts here are quite rational. I think most of the criticisms of your posts here are quite irrational.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Quote:

Okie, I think your posts here are quite rational. I think most of the criticisms of your posts here are quite irrational.

Thus spake Zarasockpuppet.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

ican makes statements without proving them. That's irrational.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

My office is mine to use for whatever I like it to be used for. As long as my tasks for my school get done, that's all that matters. I suppose my job gives me somewhat more freedom than yours did
Cycloptichorn

Sorry, cyclops, it doesn't fly, and your attitude is part of the reason why governments and bureaucracies are in the mess they are. If I have this right now after going back and forth with questions and your answers, you are working for a university, which is at least partly if not largely funded by the State of California, and by tax dollars out there, and you are using tax payer funded office facilities, their computer or computers, and everything else. It is not technically therefore "your" office. It is only for your use to do a job specifically given you, which does not include political activism, such as playing on the computer or posting your liberal activist point of view on political forums like this, all at taxpayer expense.

At the very least, I believe it is clearly unethical, and the worst it may be illegal. At least it should be illegal, cyclops, and I would be surprised that if you have a contract of some kind that goes with your job, that it would not say in there that the office and equipment are not to be used for personal use or political activism. At least we had those types of contracts when I worked for a corporation.

You need to remember, cyclops, you do not work for yourself, you are working for taxpayers and the university, which is not supposed to be aligned with one political party. You should know as well as anyone that it is not uncommon for folks to run into trouble by using government offices, computers, and other employees, to run campaigns or do work for anybody running for their political offices.

I believe I have really struck a raw nerve and I have perhaps exposed a great example of how arrogant and unethical that leftists are by nature, as it appears you think you have done nothing wrong at all, that you are entitled to the ability to misuse and abuse your employer, which is ultimately the taxpayer. It is exactly this type of attitude that we need to get rid of in government, and it is one principle reason why I am a conservative and I will not vote for any Democrats at all in the upcoming election or any election in the foreseeable future. You will probably accuse me of being "holier than thou," but sorry, we need to return to some ethics, and setting you straight is one thing I can do, besides voting against your ilk any chance I have. You will probably also go off on some silly rant about crooked Republicans, because in your mind a Democrat is above the law or something, it doesn't matter. Sorry cyclops, that is why your ilk will be defeated this November. At least I hope so.

Hey ican and other conservatives, don't you love it, I have exposed one of the leading liberal apologists for radicals here, Cyclops, that he is using university / taxpayer funded office and computer to sit around and post his liberal Democratic talking points all the time. Talk about credibility, if he ever had any, he is one Berkeley liberal that lost anything remaining of any credibility he ever had.

Note to cyclops, why don't you have the gumption to quit your job, save the state of California some money, and go run a business for a while and become educated about how the real world works for a change? I am sorry to have to be real frank with you, but if I lived in California and knew this type of crap that you are doing went on all the time, I would be even more upset than I already would have been. It would not surprise me to find out that this type of stuff is way too common throughout government nationwide.

4 Replies

@okie,

okie, You fall into the danger of trying to determine what jobs everybody does. No outsider is responsible for all workers in any workplace except his/her supervisor - unless you can prove criminal activity.

Try to digest that, because those are the facts. It's not your business unless you want to stick your nose into everybody else's business.

I also did consulting work during my work years. I worked when I wanted to, and the only obligation I had to my employer was to produce the product when due.

What I did on my own time was my business.

1 Reply

@okie,

Quote:

Talk about credibility, if he ever had any, he is one Berkeley liberal that lost anything remaining of any credibility he ever had.

Oh noez, not my credibility with Okie! Now I have nothing left in life.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Cice, makes statements without proving them. That's irrational.

Not only does Cice not prove his statements, he rarely provides any credible evidence to support his statements. Worse, he usually doesn't provide any evidence at all--credible or incredible.

0 Replies

@okie,

Quote:

Hey ican and other conservatives, don't you love it, I have exposed one of the leading liberal apologists for radicals here, Cyclops, that he is using university / taxpayer funded office and computer to sit around and post his liberal Democratic talking points all the time. Talk about credibility, if he ever had any, he is one Berkeley liberal that lost anything remaining of any credibility he ever had.

So okie.. if any of your posts use government computers will you stop posting here out of a sense of decency?

Keep in mind okie that many of the routing computers on the internet are on universities.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, You fall into the danger of trying to determine what jobs everybody does. No outsider is responsible for all workers in any workplace except his/her supervisor - unless you can prove criminal activity.

Try to digest that, because those are the facts. It's not your business unless you want to stick your nose into everybody else's business.

I also did consulting work during my work years. I worked when I wanted to, and the only obligation I had to my employer was to produce the product when due.

What I did on my own time was my business.

Some of your points are okay, but you are wrong about at least a couple of things. When it is our tax dollars being spent, it becomes our business, ci, and if I was a resident of California, I think it would even be more my business. If I was another employee of the university and observed this kind of activity to a great extent, it might depend upon the extent, I might be tempted to report it and complain to the university authorities. I think it might be a duty to do that as a taxpayer.

I am not saying cyclops is highly criminal, but I am saying he should be careful, that using tax supported computers for personal use, especially political stuff that is not part of the job given him, I think that is slightly unethical. If it is only a few minutes per week, maybe it would be akin to forgetting to leave the company pens at work and taking one or two home for personal use, which is not a serious thing and almost everyone does it, but if it hours per day all week, then that might be akin to taking loads of company office supplies home to use for personal use. For example, I still remember working for the corporation, that we used to joke with others accusing them of stealing the company pens or pencils, but we also knew there was a scale of seriousness or reasonableness. There was kind of a running debate in some offices that involved whether employees thought they should be able to drive the company vehicles home, there argument being that they were on call 24 hours per day. Not bragging, but I chose to leave the company truck at the office compound, where I went to pick it up if I got called out.

I realize cyclops's bosses might be okay with what he is doing, but I am also saying that if such practices are widespread throughout government and universities all over the country, which I suspect it might be, then that is one explanation of why this country is going broke. If the practice is many hours per week, it becomes an issue that not only his boss should have control over, but perhaps taxpayers should take notice and report to the university if that kind of stuff is obvious.

2 Replies

@okie,

okie, I know for a fact that you are not aware of government waste no matter which party runs our government. How tax dollars are spent is beyond my control whether it's at the federal or local levels. Your interest in how Cyclo does his job is "none of your business." That responsibility belongs to his supervisor. If you can prove "waste" from his employment, do so, but you're arriving at conclusions you have no evidence for. Your method for arriving at conclusions has no logic or common sense to it.

You are some ignoramus who doesn't understand much of anything.

2 Replies

@okie,

Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson has a lengthy passage on such a matter okie. It relates to the relaxation of the rules on vicious intromission because many breaches of that law were thought trivial. It referred to interference in a deceased person's goods without lawful authority.

It is on pages 199 --201 of my ancient Blackwood edition relating to the year 1772. Johnson predicts the same dangers you have done.

I can assure you that the practices you refer to are not only widespread but embrace much more serious misappropriations than you considered. A culture of relaxation of the law on the basis of triviality might well be a significant cause of the financial crisis. Especially when combined with a general contempt of religious precepts.

0 Replies

@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
Hey ican and other conservatives, don't you love it, I have exposed one of the leading liberal apologists for radicals here, Cyclops, that he is using university / taxpayer funded office and computer to sit around and post his liberal Democratic talking points all the time. Talk about credibility, if he ever had any, he is one Berkeley liberal that lost anything remaining of any credibility he ever had.

So okie.. if any of your posts use government computers will you stop posting here out of a sense of decency?

Keep in mind okie that many of the routing computers on the internet are on universities.

This post is a typical example of a parados type of argument, which incorporates the illogical to justify his consistent habit of defending leftism. In this case, he makes no distinction between the operation of the internet as a system, vs that of personal use of computers.

To further elaborate on what I just said, there is no comparison of personal use of government computers with that of the overall involvement of government computers being a part of the routing system of the internet. If universities and governments feel that it is a worthwhile function to spend tax dollars to maintain the internet system, for the good of society in general, and the furtherence of information being disseminated, and also for the benefit of educational endeavors, then I think that is a decision that is wholly ethical and reasonable. I am sure that those that are in charge of where the dollars go in the university system have looked at this and they have obviously made that decision. Hopefully, those people that they report to, such as advisors in the governor's office of California, and the governor as well, hopefully they are astute enough to know what is going on and where their tax dollars are being spent at state supported schools and universities.

On the other hand, it is a totally different scenario to consider the idea of a university owning and paying for the operation of probably dozens of computers, perhaps even hundreds of them, if they do not know for sure if those computers are necessary to perform a job function, or if those computers are being used extensively for personal use by the employees of the university. It is my opinion that there should be strict controls and accountability demanded of all those employees that have computers at state or university expense, to insure that they are not being used extensively for other purposes other than for the job given them to do for the state or university.

I have heard of cases where a government official or officials were using his or her offices and computers for essentially personal use, one case of using employees as well to send out campaign literature and for fundraising to get re-elected. Such was shown to be irresponsible and the activity was halted, perhaps even the official had to pay a fine and pay for the costs incurred, I do not remember the details.

1 Reply

@okie,

The land is government property and the minerals under it should belong to the people. Many oilmen became rich from the oil because the oil under the land came under private ownership instead of government ownership. In other countries all the minerals under the ground is government owned. So the US Government is subsidizing the oil industry and people like you in the mineral business by not taking over the minerals found in lands.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, I know for a fact that you are not aware of government waste no matter which party runs our government.

You are correct, I am not aware of all government waste, but I am aware that much does exist, and I suspect both parties are guilty.

Quote:

How tax dollars are spent is beyond my control whether it's at the federal or local levels. Your interest in how Cyclo does his job is "none of your business." That responsibility belongs to his supervisor. If you can prove "waste" from his employment, do so, but you're arriving at conclusions you have no evidence for. Your method for arriving at conclusions has no logic or common sense to it.

You are some ignoramus who doesn't understand much of anything.

I suggest that you are the ignoramus for not admitting to ethical issues here, when it is obvious and clear that there could very well be. I can only place myself in cyclops position and imagine how I should view it, and in my opinion I would be very cautious about using university or employer computers to engage in personal stuff, in particular political stuff as is found here. I also suggest that you and everyone should be on the lookout for abuse of taxpayers and we should demand of our officials some accountability in how the money is spent. It is your state that is virtually bankrupt, and if your attitude is pervasive, then it is not surprising that your state is bankrupt.

Look, I am not saying cyclops activity is highly criminal here, but I am saying that this type of thing is in fact unethical, and if this kind of thinking that produces it is widespread and taken to the extreme, it will surely lead to a collapse of responsible government, which we now in fact be seeing. It is an attitude of entitlement, without consideration for who is paying for stuff and without regard for who one is working for, that is one of the primary problems I think that we now have in government.

1 Reply

Where is the US economy headed?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know