114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:00 pm
@okie,
Illogic!
Quote:
In all of my conversations with dozens of people over the past few weeks, I have not even heard her name come up, let alone in a positive way.


If her name was not mentioned, then no value could be ascribed to it, either positive or negative, could it?

No one works harder than me, sugar, and I have known of her for years. I have even met her, perhaps, five or six years ago. Guess people just are not informed where you are.

I've always assumed Dr. Phil is a conservative but he has had Elizabeth Warren on his show many times. She is a Harvard professor; the author of several books; an Obama appointee and someone who many women would like to see become the first woman president.


Your post shows that you would rather be unpleasant than informed. To be unable to identify Elizabeth Warren is unforgivably ignorant.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:02 pm
@okie,
Wow! Did georgeob actually write that? He called my former neighbor . . . who lived one street over from me in a suburban Boston community and whose kids went to school with mine . . . "she" when his first name is Robert?
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:04 pm
@okie,
No one takes the Laffer Curve seriously. It has been ridiculed for years.

okie, you do know that the origins of the Laffer Curve are from a Medieval Muslim, don't you?
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:08 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

For those hard of seeing, understanding, or accepting, I make the following statements about the Laffer curve.

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

That is rich! The dumber portion of dumb and dumber is trying to teach something!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo -- Apparently, georgeob conflated a post of mine in which I cut and pasted an article written by my former neighbor, Robert Kuttner, with the idea of Elizabeth Warren being one of the most respected women in America.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:12 pm
@plainoldme,
I think that most of us has concluded that George lies with the best of them. It is truly a waste of one's time to read his blather.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:15 pm
@ican711nm,
It is absolute nonsense. It is like asking an injured person to exercise. The economy is injured from the foolish economic policies these people espouse.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:16 pm
@Advocate,
Well, to call a person named Robert "she" is not failing to tell the truth . . . it is a failure . . . just not that one.

Personally, I am sick of the illogic of the right . . . or, perhaps, I am simply sick of the illogic of okie.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 10:16 am
@Cycloptichorn,
In a post above Cyclo offered this as "proof" that the forthcoming increase in the income tax rates for the top tiers of the tax structure will have no adverse effect. His proof involves out-of-context and misleading statistics. It proves nothing.
Cycloptichorn wrote:

One of the talking points that Republicans like to throw around regards 'small businesses.' And the proposition that hiking up the top marginal tax brackets will somehow devastate them and their ability to create jobs.

Turns out that the truth is: not so many small businesses would be affected:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/CBPPtax.jpg

Keep this in mind next time you see someone yammering about how small businesses just NEED lower taxes to survive....

Cycloptichorn


Cyclo has used the statistic above as “proof” that higher top tax rates will not affect the great majority of small business owners, and therefore reinforcing his argument that the forthcoming end of the Bush tax cuts will not have a negative effect on our economic recovery.

The fact is the statistic above doesn’t prove anything at all. Indeed it doesn’t even tell us anything about the tax liabilities of the owners of the small businesses in the data set he references. The reason for this is that a very large fraction of such small businesses comprise only a part of the income of their owners and their incomes are taxed at a rate corresponding to their total incomes. For many, the small business is a marginal avocation used to supplement their incomes, and the business in taxed at the higher rate associated with the combined income.

My wife has run such a business, in her case as an interior designer. It started in an offhand way, after we had moved from city to city and house to house, as she helped a friend with the managing repairs & redesign for a recently purchased house. Gradually through an informal process it became a business: my wife found she was very good at it and soon developed a spreading network of sources for specialty goods, artisans, upholsterers, faux painters, tile setters and the like. Over the years she has done homes from Williamsburg, to Potomac MD, Manhattan, Chicago, Las Vegas and San Francisco. Her business generally grossed a few hundred thousand a year, and she provided a regular source of revenue for her suppliers and artisans. She enjoys the incidental travel to Europe and Asia in search of sources and made a net profit (no salary) of about 8% of the gross. Never has her business income reached the level of the top tax rate: she qualifies among the 98+% of small businesses that Cyclo cited. However, every dollar that she made was taxed at a higher marginal tax rate by both State and Federal governments in filings that included all sources of our income. The forthcoming tax increases will wipe out nearly all of the profit in her business, and that indeed is a significant disincentive. I believe this describes the situation behind a very large component of the data Cyclo so blandly cited.

Far more importantly, Cyclo’s data ignores a much larger component of our economy, businesses large and small, organized as partnerships or S corporations. Your doctor & dentist; the guy you call to repair your heating or air conditioning system; house painters; many of the stores at which you shop are almost all organized in such a way. A large fraction of high tech start up companies is also organized as S corporations. Such companies and partnerships distribute all of their profits directly to their proprietors, who pay taxes on them at the individual tax rate. A very large fraction of these incomes are indeed taxed at the top rates, and increasing those taxes is indeed a powerful disincentive to investment in the growth of these businesses. This is the component of our economy that nurtures most new and growing businesses, and is the main source for new jobs. In these bad economic times with now chronic high unemployment, we should be very careful not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I’m not trying to argue that the Bush tax cuts should be extended – though I believe they should. Instead I am trying to point out the nonsense, half truths and occasional deliberate deceptions that are involved in the web citations that are so often used as “proof” of seriously flawed arguments.

I believe that, in general, once a government has produced the rule of law and a basic level of safety and economic/social mobility, increased government activity and the increased taxes that go with (all other factors being equal) will almost always contribute to a reduction in economic activity. I’m not saying that shouldn’t be done, but only noting the economic effect. In any particular situation, a host of other factors, ranging from the distribution of wealth, to the availability of resources, international trade balances, and labor mobility to public and private debt levels, laws protecting intellectual property and limitations on monopolies all affect economic trends.

More to the point, I believe there is a burden of proof on any of us who offers an opinion on the issue of the possible extension of the Bush tax cuts in the present situation (In this case Cyclo’s cut & paste proves nothing). Further, none of us can be certain beyond doubt of our predictions – it’s a complex matter and no economist that I know of has an infallible record for predicting the future.

The dialogue here appears to be based on the presumption that the forthcoming tax increases are “obviously” needed and beneficial and will have no adverse side effects on our economy or the now chronic high unemployment we face. Further anyone who questions this apparently revealed truth is obliged to back it up with extensive “proofs” while those who oppose are not. That is neither civil nor reasonable: it is nonsense.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 10:19 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:

In a post above Cyclo offered this as "proof" that the forthcoming increase in the income tax rates for the top tiers of the tax structure will have no adverse effect. His proof involves out-of-context and misleading statistics. It proves nothing.


I did not in fact offer this as proof of the discussion we were having. It was an unrelated post, highlighting the 'poor small businesses!' idiocy that Republicans throw around. It had nothing to do with the earlier tax conversation that we were having - one in which it was fair to say you have dropped every point of contention instead of responding with evidence.

Please - try actually reading posts carefully and save yourself all that time you spent typing against a straw man.

Quote:
The dialogue here appears to be based on the presumption that the forthcoming tax increases are “obviously” needed and beneficial and will have no adverse side effects on our economy or the now chronic high unemployment we face.


Well, you certainly haven't shown that they will in any way. And there's no historical evidence showing that small increases in marginal rates lead to slower growth or less job creation or lower productivity - at all. In fact, I can point to a huge variety of periods within the last 75 years, in which taxes were higher than what we have now in every way, and yet investment and growth was also higher than what we have now. How do you account for this fact?

Why should anyone believe your position? I can prove to you, easily, that collecting more money in taxes from the rich will help close our budget gaps. Ask me to do so if you don't accept this obviously true point.

Can you prove that it will adversely affect the economy? You haven't so far.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 10:29 am
I wish this wasn't an election year, because this is the plan I would personally support, regarding our deficit and debt woes:

Quote:
A STRAIGHTFORWARD PATH TO A BALANCED BUDGET.... It's hardly a secret that the federal budget spends just a little bit more than it takes in, to the tune of about $1.3 trillion. The huge budget surplus Clinton bequeathed to Bush a decade ago -- remember when the debt clocks had to be shut down because they couldn't run backwards? -- seems like a distant memory.

Under the circumstances, it's worth emphasizing that concerns about the deficit are entirely misplaced. When the economy is struggling and unemployment is high, the reasonable thing to do is borrow money and invest in the economy.

Still, many Americans, especially on the right, have expressed an interest in getting the budget shortfall under control. Given the deficit's size, it seems daunting, if not impossible, to close the gap anytime soon. But Lori Montgomery notes today that there's actually a fairly straightforward path to a balanced budget -- it's just one voters and policymakers aren't willing to consider right now.

Quote:
As lawmakers bicker over whether to extend the Bush-era tax cuts, not just for the middle class but also for the wealthy, many economists and budget analysts say there's a simple way to curb borrowing: Let the tax cuts expire for everyone.

Official and independent budget estimates show that letting tax rates spring back to pre-Bush levels for all taxpayers would bring the country within striking distance of meeting President Obama's goal of balancing the budget, excluding interest payments on the debt, by 2015.

"If we actually ended the Bush-era tax cuts, that would pretty much do it," Obama's recently departed budget director, Peter Orszag, said in an interview last week with CNN's Fareed Zakaria. "If you do a bit on the spending side and then end the tax cuts, you pretty much get there."

Congress wouldn't even have to do anything -- Republicans designed their own tax policy to have the lower rates expire at the end of the year. There wouldn't even be a filibuster to overcome, since doing nothing would let the '90s-era rates return on schedule.

For all of those conservative budget hawks out there, this should sound pretty appealing, right? By 2015, the only part of the deficit remaining would be interest on the debt.

I saw recently that the debt is allegedly the "Tea Partiers' top issue." Surely, then, they'd welcome this effective approach to deficit reduction, wouldn't they?
—Steve Benen 11:30 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (5)


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_09/025768.php

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 10:38 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

In a post above Cyclo offered this as "proof" that the forthcoming increase in the income tax rates for the top tiers of the tax structure will have no adverse effect. His proof involves out-of-context and misleading statistics. It proves nothing.


I did not in fact offer this as proof of the discussion we were having. It was an unrelated post, highlighting the 'poor small businesses!' idiocy that Republicans throw around. Cycloptichorn


Unfortunately your "proof" that the the assertions by unnamed Republicans about the effects of the tax increases on small businesses, was itself idiocy and proved nothing at all.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 10:54 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Unfortunately your "proof" that the the assertions by unnamed Republicans about the effects of the tax increases on small businesses, was itself idiocy and proved nothing at all.


I disagree. The chart accurately describes so-called 'C' corporations, which are generally what is referred to as 'small businesses.' The vast majority of them are unaffected by the marginal tax increases in question. Your bringing up of either S corps or the fact that people are taxed at the high marginal rates in marriages are not material to the point I was making.

What more, you certainly did misread the post if you thought I was offering it as proof of our other conversation, which you clearly (and erroneously) claimed was the case in your last post.

What even more, you seemed to have completely dropped the point that 5% changes in marginal rates have NEVER materially affected anyone's investment decisions. Are you going to simply ignore the fact that you haven't responded to the actual situation we face, and continue to hide in Appeals to Extreme - or are you willing to engage the argument head-on?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 11:25 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You are dead wrong on several points. The chart did NOT depict data from all C corporations or even only C corporations, and may not include all small businesses either.

General Electric is a C corporation, as are all publicly traded corporations. Small businesses are defined by the Federal Small Business Administration with different thresholds for each category in a huge government classification system (NAICS) that attempts to define all possible activities. Most thresholds involve maximum annual revenues (generally about $5 million), but some involve the number of employees - all depending on the NAICS category of activity.

The largest number of small businesses are not corporations at all, but rather the individual entreprenurial activity of individuals who report their business income on standard IRS 1040s - and that was the major component of the data that you reported. Other small businesses are partnerships, S corporations and some C corporations. The difference between C corporations and S corporations is that the former can accumulate capital (retained earnings) and pay a corporate income tax on earnings, while the latter distribute all profits to their owners who pay taxes on them at the individual rates.

It appears to me that your understanding of business and economics is somewhat limited.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 11:34 am
@georgeob1,
I repeat:

Quote:

What even more, you seemed to have completely dropped the point that 5% changes in marginal rates have NEVER materially affected anyone's investment decisions. Are you going to simply ignore the fact that you haven't responded to the actual situation we face, and continue to hide in Appeals to Extreme - or are you willing to engage the argument head-on?


Are you just going to not respond to this point?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 11:34 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob, Do you know if the IRS provides a similar graph that shows the breakdown you identified as corporations and those businesses that report on 1040's?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 11:39 am
@georgeob1,
I repeat:

Quote:

What even more, you seemed to have completely dropped the point that 5% changes in marginal rates have NEVER materially affected anyone's investment decisions. Are you going to simply ignore the fact that you haven't responded to the actual situation we face, and continue to hide in Appeals to Extreme - or are you willing to engage the argument head-on?


Are you just going to not respond to this point? I won't ask again, and instead will assume that you realize that you cannot support your point and have dropped it. You could at least do the courtesy of admitting it.

Re: the other point, you are correct; the article shows that only 2% of those who get ANY income from 'small businesses' fall into the top two brackets. I was in error. But I don't see how this supports your point at all, that tax increases hurt small businesses materially.

I'll reprint the article where I got the data from:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/gop-bechtel-pricewaterhousecoopers-and-other-small-businesses-will-see-tax-hike-charts.php?ref=fpblg

Quote:
GOP: Bechtel, PricewaterhouseCoopers And Other 'Small Businesses' Will See Tax Hike (CHARTS)

As the fight over the expiring Bush tax cuts drags on, Democrats and Republicans are vying for public support by citing figures about business tax rates. According to President Obama and the Democrats, 97 percent of small businesses will see their tax rates remain the same. Republican counter that the remaining three percent of small businesses -- about 750,000 of them -- constitute half of all small-business income. There's only one way both of those statements can be true: Many of those 750,000 small businesses aren't small at all. Some, like Bechtel Corporation, are positively enormous.

The Democratic and Republican figures come from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation. But numerous think tanks and government organizations have examined the data and come to similar conclusions: First, that letting the Bush tax cuts on the top two brackets of "small-business" income would impact a tiny percentage of those businesses; and second, that many of the "small businesses" that would be impacted are actually giant companies -- which explains why such a tiny fraction of them can account for half of small business income.

According to the Washington Post, which obtained its information from House Democrats, some of the "small businesses" that could see a small increase in their marginal taxes are household names like accounting giant PricewaterhouseCoopers and Tribune Corp. -- privately-owned behemoths whose owners and managers dodge corporate taxes by reporting profits on their income tax returns.

It's those receipts that allow Republicans to claim, based on a recent report by JCT, that Obama's plan will ensnare 50 percent of all "small business income. JCT addressed this in the same report. "These figures for net positive business income do not imply that all of the income is from entities that might be considered 'small.'"

Over the last three decades, the numbers of these types of businesses -- both small, large, and enormous -- has exploded.
(Source: Joint Committee on Taxation)

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/JCTSmallBusiness.jpg

That creates a great deal of distortion when the biggest of the firms are Bechtel-sized. In 2005, partnerships with over $50,000,000 in receipts accounted for two-thirds of all partnership receipts, even though they accounted for only 0.2 percent of all tax returns from partnerships, according to data from a 2008 report from JCT.

It's more than a stretch, then, to call these businesses "small," as Republicans do. Even conservative economists call it a stretch. Alan Viard -- a member of George W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers -- told the Post: "How can it be that 3 percent of owners are accounting for 50 percent of small business income? Those firms they're owning can't be all that small.... They're very large."


I note that your posts are large on assertions and attacking of others' evidence, but - as per your usual - you introduce none yourself. None at all. Just assertion after assertion. Do you honestly think that this is a valid way to argue? Are you incapable of creating a hyperlink (though a child could figure that out, so I doubt that's the case)? Just so lazy you can't be bothered?

You also have a bad habit of ignoring parts of posts that you can't meaningfully respond to. Why would anyone be convinced by argumentation which ignores the need to produce evidence, and which ignores the points which it cannot reasonably support? These are the hallmarks of an unconvincing debater - wouldn't you agree?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 11:46 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I think that happens, because conservatives parrot what their leaders say, and don't bother to study the underlying facts of the issue.

What the biggest mystery for me is the simple fact that conservatives parrot the Bush tax cut permanent meme, but doesn't answer who will pay for this growing deficit. It certainly isn't fair for our children to carry the burden of current spending on all the social programs and wars. What are they thinking? It just doesn't make sense from any perspective of fairness. Are they so greedy today that they would transfer current debts to our children?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 11:57 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I repeat:

Quote:

What even more, you seemed to have completely dropped the point that 5% changes in marginal rates have NEVER materially affected anyone's investment decisions. Are you going to simply ignore the fact that you haven't responded to the actual situation we face, and continue to hide in Appeals to Extreme - or are you willing to engage the argument head-on?


Are you just going to not respond to this point?

Cycloptichorn


It seems to me that it is you who evades issues here - particularly on points where your assertions are found to be flawed or wrong.

However I'll try to address yours above.

I have offered an example from my own experience in which a 5% increase in the marginal tax rate will wipe out most of the profits in a small business that my wife operates - a business that incidently provides substantial income to other individual artisans and suppliers. I have also noted how this model is indeed representative of a fairly large class of businesses and probably the largest component of the data base you offered as "proof" that the tax increases will do no harm.

What I described was no "appeal to the extreme": it was typical of a very large number of individual proprietors and entrepreneurs in this country, and it went to the heart of the very data which you enployed as "proof" of your proposition that the tax increases will have no effect.

Are you really trying to assert that "5% changes in marginal rates have NEVER materially affected anyone's investment decisions" ? "NEVER" is a very difficult thing to prove.

What the hell IS your point???
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 12:02 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:

The fact is the statistic above doesn’t prove anything at all. Indeed it doesn’t even tell us anything about the tax liabilities of the owners of the small businesses in the data set he references. The reason for this is that a very large fraction of such small businesses comprise only a part of the income of their owners and their incomes are taxed at a rate corresponding to their total incomes.

I think you need to read the chart again george. You clearly are NOT correct in what it says.
Quote:
Only 1.9% of filers with small business income are in the top two income tax brackets

It doesn't say filers with ONLY business income. It states filers with small business income. That means anyone that filed taxes and listed income from a small business. Your argument is the one that is misleading george since you are not discussing what the chart actually shows.
0 Replies
 
 

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