114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 12:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Evidence of changes in total employment PLUS THE OTHER EVIDENCE I PROVIDED DOES constitute evidence that MY position is correct.

What do you have thst constitutes evidence my position is not correct?

??? Economists agree: Stimulus created nearly 3 million jobs ???

Which economists agree? Which economists disagree? What is the evidence that those who agree are correct? What is the evidence that those economists who disagree are incorrect?

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 12:54 pm
@ican711nm,
No, it doesn't, because you don't understand economics. You don't even know what the underlying cause and effect for employment increase and decrease is.

CLUE: What you have observed during GW Bush's tenure is called a "balloon."
It blew up in his face in 2008.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 12:54 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Evidence of changes in total employment PLUS THE OTHER EVIDENCE I PROVIDED DOES constitute evidence that MY position is correct.


No, it doesn't. Do you honestly not understand this?

Quote:
Which economists agree?


The article states it. You should try reading links that are posted before you attack them.

Quote:
Which economists disagree?


I can't find any economists who support your position - at all. That's YOUR job to present, Ican.

Quote:
What is the evidence that those who agree are correct?


Probably the fact that our economy is actually adding jobs instead of losing them - although, not fast enough for a true recovery.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 01:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
THE DATA I PROVIDED SHOW THAT
Tax receipts have been INcreasing while government tax rates were decreased.

GDP increases with federal spending increases as well as with private spending increases. Consequently, total employed or percent employed is a far better indicator of the health or illness of the economy.

I earned a Masters Degree in Business Administration as well as in Electrical Engineering. Both economics and macro economics were a major part of the Business Administration program. Both economics and macro economics were also a part, albeit smaller part, of the Electrical Engineering program. I worked 30 years in engineering research and development. After I retired from that my wife and I have run for 26 years our prosperous aviation training and charter--including a Learjet--business.

Back in the 1970s I was a member of a public school board for 5 years, and president of that board for 2 years. However, I only accomplished four of the 10 objectives during that period that I set out to accomplish:
(1) Required teachers in my school district to be rated at least satisfactory in order to obtain a raise;
(2) Prevented an unneeded school from being built;
(3) Prevented the school honors program from being terminated;
(4) Helped private citizens continue the district's sports and other extra curricula programs after a budget was defeated and replaced with an austerity budget.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 01:32 pm
I'll be back later!
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 01:36 pm
@ican711nm,
It seems you missed learning from the courses you admit to have taken. If you really understood macroeconomics, you would know what influences the economy, but all you do is post tables of federal tax receipts and uses. That means you have no understanding for the cause of tax increases and decreases, and how a domestic economy built on fraud and greed will eventually collapse on its own weight. Yes, taxes will increase, but the future cost for such an increase cannot be sustained - as has been proven during the past several years.

The negative impact from the faux economic increase until 2008 (when tax revenues increased) turned into the Great Recession, and many Americans lost their jobs and homes. It impacted the world economy. Tax receipts are now at its lowest, and local, state, and the federal government's deficits only grows larger.

Where did you get your masters in BA? FOX News?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 01:38 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I'll be back later!


Make sure that you've found instances of economists who claim that the Stim bill caused more Americans to lose jobs, than it created. And then present this evidence when you return.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
More of your many unsupported and unsupportable claims:
Quote:
It seems you missed learning from the courses you admit to have taken. If you really understood macroeconomics, you would know what influences the economy, but all you do is post tables of federal tax receipts and uses. That means you have no understanding for the cause of tax increases and decreases, and how a domestic economy built on fraud and greed will eventually collapse on its own weight. Yes, taxes will increase, but the future cost for such an increase cannot be sustained - as has been proven during the past several years.

The negative impact from the faux economic increase until 2008 (when tax revenues increased) turned into the Great Recession, and many Americans lost their jobs and homes. It impacted the world economy. Tax receipts are now at its lowest, and local, state, and the federal government's deficits only grows larger.

I beleive you do not know what it is you do not know!

While you post little or nothing to support your claims, I post these tables to support my claims:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Year.......FEDERAL RECEIPTS FINAL FULL YEAR OF TERM

Year.......FEDERAL OUTLAYS FINAL FULL YEAR OF TERM

Year………FEDERAL DEFICITS

Year………GROSS FEDERAL DEBT

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea1.txt
Year……TOTAL US CIVIL EMPLOYMENT

Year.…….PERCENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATION EMPLOYED

ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Make sure that you've found RATIONAL AND LOGICAL EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR claim that the Stim bill caused more Americans to GAIN jobs, than LOST JOBS. And then present this evidence AFTER I return.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:24 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Make sure that you've found RATIONAL AND LOGICAL EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR claim that the Stim bill caused more Americans to GAIN jobs, than LOST JOBS. And then present this evidence AFTER I return.



I didn't make the claim that you just wrote up there. Instead, I claimed that the Stim bill CREATED jobs and didn't COST anyone any jobs. That evidence has already been presented to you.

YOU claimed that the Stim bill caused more lost jobs than would have occurred without it. You haven't presented any evidence of this yet, though. Posting graphs of the overall employment situation for the last several years does not support your point.

You seem to be thoroughly confused as to what is being discussed here.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:24 pm
@ican711nm,
You provide no analysis or numbers. What message are you trying to convey? Is this how you earned your masters?
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19818&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
The Naked Stimulus: Why Savings Stimulate More Than Spending
Despite the struggling economy, President Obama argues that his stimulus package is producing gross domestic product (GDP) growth that is far better than the disaster that would have ensued without the $862 billion in emergency spending. The reason, he and his advisors maintain, is that what really counts is spending -- the more the better, at least for now, says Shawn Tully, Fortune Magazine's senior editor-at-large.

But the administration's policy has a fundamental flaw. It's impossible to raise GDP by borrowing from one group of people, who would otherwise save that money, and transfer it to another group of people (and the government) to spend. Savings, in the short term, have precisely the same impact on national income as spending, says Tully.

GDP measures all spending on all the goods and services that America produces.

Savings translate, dollar for dollar, into a major component of that total spending: investment.

All the money that the administration successfully moves from savings to consumption simply channels one type of spending to another, in precisely offsetting amounts.

The GDP does not change when the government drains investment to lift consumption.

Over long periods, savings -- not consumer spending -- finance the investments in mainframes, robots and other capital equipment that enhance productivity and drive economic growth.

So what would have happened if we'd had no stimulus at all?

First, private investment would be higher, because of the bigger pool of savings -- a positive sign for the future.
Second, the United States wouldn't have to borrow nearly as much from abroad.

Source: Shawn Tully, "The Naked Stimulus: Why Savings Stimulate More than Spending," Fortune, September 9, 2010.

ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Make sure that you've found RATIONAL AND LOGICAL EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR claim that the Stim bill bill CREATED jobs and didn't COST anyone any jobs. .

That evidence has NOT already been presented BY YOU to ME.
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I PROVIDED analysis AND numbers. What message are you trying to convey?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:46 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Make sure that you've found RATIONAL AND LOGICAL EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR claim that the Stim bill bill CREATED jobs and didn't COST anyone any jobs. .

That evidence has NOT already been presented BY YOU to ME.



Yes, it has. And it is both rational and exceedingly logical.

You, on the other hand, have not been able to present the opinion of a single person other than yourself, that the Stim bill COST jobs and didn't CREATE any jobs. Can you do so? I doubt it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:51 pm
Tully's wrong. Simply put, savings that produce investment increase capacity, eventually, not in the short term. the problem was not capacity, indeed there was excess capacity, because the conservative-economic debacle saw the economy shrinking. The problem was shrinking demand, since people were losing jobs and businesses were going bankrupt, with the result that less was being produced and people could buy less. Stimulus money among other things kept people, like teachers and cops among others, in the work force, enabling them to buy more, which spurred businesses to produce more, and paid for more business projects. That's a shorter-term fix, which is what was needed. Doesn't help if you invest in something that's not going to pay off for a few years when you need to fix a problem NOW, so that in a few years people will have the money to afford the service which won't come online anytime soon.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 03:00 pm
@ican711nm,
I'll give you examples that shows Mr Tully is wrong:
Tully:
Quote:
Savings, in the short term, have precisely the same impact on national income as spending, says Tully.


You probably have not been paying any attention to the general economy of the US. The increase in GDP was based on borrowings from both consumers and the government. Consumer debt reversed the savings rate to negative during the height of our economic growth, while consumers borrowed against the equity of their homes and future earnings to increase consumer spending that represents 70% of our economy. The two facets of increased GDP happened, not because the wealthy increased jobs by investments into improving our economy, but by speculating in the stock market and derivatives that ended up losing billions for the richest people. The demand in housing did increase construction spending and jobs, but that was an investment based on greed and speculation that had no justification for survival. They were selling homes to unqualified buyers. That conclusion can be reached by common sense; no need for Econ 101.

At the same time, Bush's tax cuts did not increase employment in all the businesses unrelated to the financial crisis; it did exactly the opposite by increasing unemployment. At the same time, the richest became richer, and the middle class and poor hardly kept up with inflation. They just borrowed more to live like the Joneses.

Tully wrote:
Quote:
Savings translate, dollar for dollar, into a major component of that total spending: investment.


You may not be aware of it, but the US government kept interest rates low, and borrowed money from China and Japan to keep spending money that just increased the deficit. There was no "investment."

Tully wrote:
Quote:
Over long periods, savings -- not consumer spending -- finance the investments in mainframes, robots and other capital equipment that enhance productivity and drive economic growth.


It is not savings that finances investments in mainframes and other capital equipment. It's based on profit and cash flow.

Tully wrote:
Quote:
First, private investment would be higher, because of the bigger pool of savings -- a positive sign for the future.


Those people who have investments "because of the bigger pool of savings" is not even good English. How he translates that into "a positive sign for the future" is missing. The Japanese were the highest savers of this world, but their economy fell into a deeper recession than the rest of the world. That's fact.

I'm not sure where Tully got his education, but he must've been your professor.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 03:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19814&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
Third-Rail Economics
The cost of entitlement programs like Medicare and Social Security is racing ahead at the same time that the federal government is ladling out dollars to fight the recession. Meanwhile, we are contending with chronically high unemployment, insurmountable debt payments and a crushing tax burden that could kill U.S. competitiveness. Maybe, just maybe, those entitlements have to be redesigned, says Congressman Paul Ryan.

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects that federal debt will, by 2020, rise to nearly 100 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) -- compared with 62 percent today and 36 percent only three years ago -- if the Bush tax cuts are extended, the alternative minimum tax is indexed for inflation and current spending policies remain in place. According to the Social Security Board of Trustees, by 2037 the program's trust funds will be depleted, says Forbes.

To keep that from happening, Ryan proposes to freeze nondefense discretionary spending -- 15 percent of the budget -- for 10 years and move to means-tested programs to cover retirees and sick people.

Ryan's tax plan would eliminate itemized deductions and set rates at 10 percent for the first $50,000 of income on an individual return and 25 percent for income above that.

He would replace the corporate income tax with an 8.5 percent business consumption tax.

Other proposals by Ryan include:

Wiping out ObamaCare and replacing it with a voucher-based system in which adults get a $2,300 refundable tax credit to pay for health care.

Similarly, Medicare recipients under age 55 today would, on retirement, get vouchers to buy private insurance.

He would also raise the eligibility age for both Social Security and Medicare to 69 and 70, respectively, by the end of this century.

Source: Brian Wingfield, "Third-Rail Economics," Forbes Magazine, September 13, 2010.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 03:04 pm
@ican711nm,
Totally a conservative meme without much in the way of common sense or real analysis of the issues he's trying to address.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 06:29 pm

The Republican leaders in both houses of Congress are getting clearer what their alternative economic strategy is:

Giant tax cuts for multimillionaires minus slashed public services for the middle-class minus letting our infrastructure rot equals even bigger budget deficits than today.

The Washington Post estimates that Sen. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell's plan to permanently extend all the Bush tax cuts would "force the nation to borrow an additional $3.9 trillion over the next decade" and that's "more than four times the projected deficit impact of President Obama's health-care overhaul and stimulus package combined."

(The health-care overhaul, of course, is projected to cut the deficit.)

W. Post's Ezra Klein adds: "There is no policy that President Obama has passed or proposed that added as much to the deficit as the Republican Party's $3.9 trillion extension of the Bush tax cuts."

But conservative budgeteering is not all giveaways to the wealthy. McConnell's House counterpart Rep. John Boehner is proposing to cut spending too . He wants to fix spending levels to where they were in 2008 -- ignoring things like inflation and population growth – to save $340 billion over the next decade.

While Boehner is not candid enough to detail what exactly would get cut, The Fiscal Times concluded the Boehner budget would " require deep cuts in basic services and big projects."

NASA would have to slash its budget by $4.1 billion below President Obama’s request – an amount that administration officials said would be equal to what NASA spends on the international space station and on aeronautics research.

The Internal Revenue Service would have to cut spending by $3 billion. That might require a reduction in enforcement, at a time when the agency is already struggling to narrow a $290 billion “tax gap” – taxes owed but not paid.

The National Science Foundation would have to cut at least $1.5 billion – an amount equal to all its funding on research in biology and engineering. Alternatively, according to Obama administration officials, the NSF could eliminate all its education programs and all of its research facilities in Antarctica.

The Securities and Exchange Commission, which was eviscerated by budget cuts earlier in the decade and came in for savage criticism under the Bush administration for failing to catch massive stock swindles or to curb Wall Street risk-taking, would have to retrench once again. …

…The spending cuts would almost certainly hit federal prison spending, which has seen its budget climb from $5 billion in 2008 to $8.5 billion in 2010, as the nation’s population of prison inmates has soared.
Yet despite that severe impact to basic services, the deep spending cuts are nowhere near deep enough to offset the huge tax cuts.

This gets a little complicated, but bear with me.

$3.9 trillion in tax cuts.

Minus $340 billion in spending cuts.

Equals $3.56 trillion added to the national debt over the next decade.

Of course, you can argue that increasing the deficit sometimes make sense – like when you invest in modernizing infrastructure to propel future growth and reduce health and environmental costs.

But Boehner and McConnell have repeatedly criticized the President for supporting policies that increase deficit –even though in many cases those policies are doing the exact opposite.

So they are not openly embracing bigger deficits. Yet that's what their stated policies would do.

And they would pile on the national debt without getting anything in return to strengthen our nation's foundation and prepare the next generation to compete in the 21st century.

It literally does not add up.

ourfuture.org
0 Replies
 
 

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