Where is the US economy headed?

@okie,

No. When Bush did it, he was creating a bigger deficit that is transferred to our children and grandchildren. Without the stimulus/recovery plan, there won't be any economy left for our children and grandchildren which makes any tax policy moot.

okie wrote:

Quote:

So extending unemployment benefits and all that kind of stuff sounds wonderful and compassionate, but is not going to create jobs or even encourage some people to even look for jobs.

That's right; but if you had been reading my posts and comprehended what I wrote, you would already understand this.

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@cicerone imposter,

BTW, okie, more than one-third of the stimulus plan goes towards tax cuts.

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@okie,

Quote:

And to be clear, some of the "tax cuts" are not really tax cuts, because the people getting them don't pay taxes. They are instead a giveaway of more money, using the tax stystem. But Bush did this too, but when he did it, the libs all claimed Bush was only giving tax breaks to the rich, which was of course a lie.

This is untrue. Everyone who rec'vs a tax cut pays payroll taxes; some qualify for refunds or rebates at the end of the year but everyone pays them upfront.

Cycloptichorn

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@cicerone imposter,

Tax cuts to the lower through middle class up to incomes of 100,000.00 a year would be the people who have the desire to buy a new house, a new car, a new flat screen, a new toaster, et al, by the millions and have enough left over to put away for a rainy day. Not the very wealthy who already have enough houses, cars, flat screens, toasters, et al. They certainly don't need more money to buy a new supply of diuretics so they can once again piss (trickle being a euphemism) in a greater stream on the rest of us.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

No. When Bush did it, he was creating a bigger deficit that is transferred to our children and grandchildren.

So when Obama does it, it doesn't create a bigger deficit? I think, ci, you have lost any congnitive ability you might have had. Some estimate this to be cost more than 3 trillion, which we will all have to pay for, probably the biggest boondoggle in the nation's history.

Quote:

Without the stimulus/recovery plan, there won't be any economy left for our children and grandchildren which makes any tax policy moot.

Total and absolute baloney.

Quote:

okie wrote:
Quote:
So extending unemployment benefits and all that kind of stuff sounds wonderful and compassionate, but is not going to create jobs or even encourage some people to even look for jobs.

That's right; but if you had been reading my posts and comprehended what I wrote, you would already understand this.

Duh???????

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@Cycloptichorn,

What okie seems to miss is that people must first file a tax return in order to get any tax refund. If a worker doesn't file a tax return, they will not get a tax refund.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I know a good example of this, ci. A little tax is deducted from paycheck, mostly for Social Security and Medicare, then when tax returns are submitted, they receive thousands more than they even pay as income tax, due to earned income or child tax credits, etc. This does not mean they paid any tax. If you would do the math, they received money over and above what they paid, so they paid no tax, none, except Social Security, etc., but even if those are included I think they still come out as a net receiver of money.

Filling out a tax return does not equal paying taxes, perhaps that is news to you guys? So this is not a tax refund. You cannot receive a refund for something you never paid.

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@Cycloptichorn,

The only idea the Repubs came up with that makes sense and has also been previously proposed by Demos is the moratorium on withholding. It was considered necessary for the cash flow to fight WWII and has gone through some changes. The Cato Institute, a non-partisan think tank, has a fairly long analysis of withholding:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj14n3-1.html

This could be a subsequent step to reduce it based some fair consideration of ability to pay and quarterly returns should also be addressed. Maybe mandatory savings accounts where the taxpayer can deposit what is considered a fair percentage into an interest bearing investment for April 15th.

Trouble is, of course, that what the government has to do now (it's obviously going to pass) will not allow any stopping off of cash flow from the taxpayer.

This is complicate, but I think the bill being passed is not too bad even though I still think that infrastructure investment is being maligned unnecessarily as not creating jobs. Bull.

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Ya know, it's not necessary to shout and holler internet style -- get the back to Yahoo chat. It's more your style and level. I won't mention names.

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@okie,

That may be partially true, but tax rebates were based on adjusted gross income, and the taxable amount and the rebate were based on number of kids in the family.

IRS table:
http://thefinancialengineer.blogspot.com/2008/02/2008-tax-rebate-lookup-tables.html

I don't know of anyone earning AGI of at least $15,000 not paying any income tax. Do you?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

2008 Tax Table:

Married Filing Jointly or Qualifying Widow(er) Filing Status
(Tax Rate Schedule Y-1)

* 10% on the income between $0 and $16,050
* 15% on the income between $16,050 and $65,100; plus $1,605.00
* 25% on the income between $65,100 and $131,450; plus $8,962.50
* 28% on the income between $131,450 and $200,300; plus $25,550.00
* 33% on the income between $200,300 and $357,700; plus $44,828.00
* 35% on the income over $357,700; plus $96,770.00

Married Filing Separately Filing Status
(Tax Rate Schedule Y-2)

* 10% on the income between $0 and $8,025
* 15% on the income between $8,025 and $32,550; plus $802.50
* 25% on the income between $32,550 and $65,725; plus $4,481.25
* 28% on the income between $65,725 and $100,150; plus $12,775.00
* 33% on the income between $100,150 and $178,850; plus $22,414.00
* 35% on the income over $178,850; plus $48,385.00

Head of Household Filing Status
(Tax Rate Schedule Z)

* 10% on the income between $0 and $11,450
* 15% on the income between $11,450 and $43,650; plus $1,145.00
* 25% on the income between $43,650 and $112,650; plus $5,975.00
* 28% on the income between $112,650 and $182,400; plus $23,225.00
* 33% on the income between $182,400 and $357,700; plus $42,755.00
* 35% on the income over $357,700; plus $100,604.00

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@okie,

okie wrote:

I know a good example of this, ci. A little tax is deducted from paycheck, mostly for Social Security and Medicare, then when tax returns are submitted, they receive thousands more than they even pay as income tax, due to earned income or child tax credits, etc. This does not mean they paid any tax. If you would do the math, they received money over and above what they paid, so they paid no tax, none, except Social Security, etc., but even if those are included I think they still come out as a net receiver of money.

Filling out a tax return does not equal paying taxes, perhaps that is news to you guys? So this is not a tax refund. You cannot receive a refund for something you never paid.

I would point out that Republicans are quite fond of the Refundable child tax credit and they argue to keep it.

But, you are incorrect. Even those who do end up getting back more than they put in due to credits do pay taxes. They get taxes removed every month. That money is loaned to the US gov't at a 0% interest rate until the taxes are filled out at the end of the year. So your statement is false; they did pay. And the payroll tax cut will affect millions who otherwise may not have gotten one, it will happen immediately (not at the end of the fiscal year) and it will be wide-spread.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

They don't all pay, and none of them HAVE to. They just need to claim exempt on their W-4 forms.

If you anticipate that you're not going to owe any federal income taxes, you can claim exempt on your W-4.

I think the child tax credit needs to be removed, along with the mortgage interest credit, along with whatever other tax credits are out there.

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@maporsche,

They can claim "exempt," but must have paid at least 90% of their tax liability through payroll withholding or must pay penalties and interest.

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

They don't all pay, and none of them HAVE to. They just need to claim exempt on their W-4 forms.

If you anticipate that you're not going to owe any federal income taxes, you can claim exempt on your W-4.

I think the child tax credit needs to be removed, along with the mortgage interest credit, along with whatever other tax credits are out there.

What percentage of people actually do this? My guess would be extremely few.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I'm not responsible for people who don't know what they can and cannot do.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

I'm not responsible for people who don't know what they can and cannot do.

It's not a question of what you are responsible for - duh - but a question of what people actually do.

While you contend that many people could avoid paying their taxes monthly with a W4, I doubt that very many people actually do this, and so my original point stands unchallenged.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

Yup. Even if they did use the W4 not to pay taxes, they'd end up paying more in penalties and interest; so what's the benefit? The best strategy is to make sure one pays at least 90% of their tax liability through payroll deductions; that way you're not loaning the government with an interest free loan - except short term loans pay hardly anything.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Fine Cyclops...

There is a policy in place that would allow them to CHOOSE not to have taxes taken out every paycheck. If they choose to allow taxes to be taken out then I am not worried about the 0% loan to the government, since this loan in VOLUNTARY. Therefore, your statement, while maybe true, is meaningless in the larger context of the discussion.

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@cicerone imposter,

What are you talking about?

If I make $25,000 and I claim exempt on my taxes, when I file my return at it shows that I owe zero taxes...there are no penalties or interest.

1 Reply

Where is the US economy headed?

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