114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Free markets require freedom to operate, ci, get a life. If I have to do your research for you to prove the earth is round, forget it. I thought you had more brains than that? Use them.

By the way, what is Obama proposing trickle down economics, whats up with that? I thought he wanted change?

The man is clueless, I am warning you, ci. He has no clue. He wrote a book. Hes a lawyer, not an economist, and he is totally clueless. Don't tell me I didn't warn you a year from now if he is elected. Take the miserable Democrat Congress, with absolutely no accomplishments, and multiply that and that is where we will be.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:20 pm
@okie,
All I'm asking for is for you to produce what you claim is found in a Econ 101 textbook. It's a direct question to a claim "you" made. We're not talking about the round earth; that's a strawman or red herring..

I do have a life; probably better than most in this world.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:22 pm
@okie,
You wrote:
Quote:
Free markets require freedom to operate, ci, get a life.


Whether you realize it or not, you just contradicted your own claims. "Freedom to operate" doesn't jive with your earlier claims about employers providing health insurance - or any other benefit.

This ocean is too big for you to swim in, okie. Go find a wading pool.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I used a euphemism econ 101, and you know it. I see no reason to go flipping through a book to satisfy a stupid question about an obvious fact. Free markets require freedoms to operate properly, thats self evident.

Now I will repeat what I said above about the debate tonight, ci.

Obama is clueless, I am warning you, ci. He has no clue. He wrote a book. Hes a lawyer, not an economist, and he is totally clueless. Don't tell me I didn't warn you a year from now if he is elected. Take the miserable Democrat Congress, with absolutely no accomplishments, and multiply that and that is where we will be.

I am beginning to think the market plunging is partially due to Obamas poll numbers rising, people are getting out to avoid the pending further future disasters after the current disaster. For example, why invest in companies, if their profits are going to be robbed by Obama, or maybe even the companies will be nationalized down the road a few years? It is giving me pause to consider, after all I see energy companies maybe a good buy right now, but maybe not if Obama wins and starts pillaging the companies along with his stupid accomplices in the Congress. Same story in other business sectors. And I can tell you I am probably not alone in these thoughts.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote:
Quote:
Free markets require freedom to operate, ci, get a life.


Whether you realize it or not, you just contradicted your own claims. "Freedom to operate" doesn't jive with your earlier claims about employers providing health insurance - or any other benefit.

This ocean is too big for you to swim in, okie. Go find a wading pool.

Hey, companies can buy anything they want for their employees, I don't care, but it should be taxed like anything paid to them and it should not be mandated. Doing it is freedom, but probably stupid, and probably would not be done if not mandated. Mandating it is not freedom. Grasp that simple fact if you are capable of it, ci. If not, I am not getting in the wading pool with you. If you can't swim out here in the ocean, then don't try it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:33 pm
@okie,
okie, You're not answering the question; which econ 101 book did you take your lessons from that states companies should not pay for health insurance?

okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:37 pm
@okie,
One more comment about energy companies. Obama and people that think like him in government see nothing but dollar signs wherever they exist, example energy companies. One good industry making money, being productive, and Obama sees opportunity for government to rob them of their money. Anything that makes money is fair game. He has a leach mentality, running a government that robs productivity to give to people that are not productive, to gain power. Pathetic, ci, I am surprised you can't see this simple obvious fact.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, You're not answering the question; which econ 101 book did you take your lessons from that states companies should not pay for health insurance?



Hey, get a life, ci, the lesson is embedded in econ 101, at least any book that espouses free markets, not explicitly, but it is there. The principles of the free market that give it the advantages are largely provided by the fact that the people using a service are the same ones that are paying for them, thusly maximizing the best oversight and efficiencies of the service. That is why a kid that is given everything on a silver platter does not spend the money efficiently. If he has to make it himself, and spends his own money, the efficiency improves.

If somebody else is paying for my health care, I go to the doctor with a runny nose, and I don't monitor the bill given the insurance company, because I am not paying for it. Do I have to spell it out any plainer?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 04:06 pm
@okie,
You continue to show your narrow mindedness. Your interpretation of economics is not only wrong, but nobody will be able to find it in any econ 101 textbook.

Your BS is tiresome and boring.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 04:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You continue to show your narrow mindedness. Your interpretation of economics is not only wrong, but nobody will be able to find it in any econ 101 textbook.

Your BS is tiresome and boring.

Okay then I guess free markets operate better under dictatorships or in communistic societies? Is that what your textbooks say?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 05:18 pm
@okie,
Again, another tiresome and boring statement from okie; the expert at "nothing."
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 05:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are not answering the points ci. You are resorting to the usual technique that you use on other threads.

What about a sexual free market? Monkeys have them and you think we are fancy monkeys don't you. We share a load of percentage points of DNA with them. Are you up for a free market in sex?

It's not a novelty you know. It has been tried before.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 05:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
POOF, and spendi disappeared. LOL
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 05:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The cringe factor folks. Don't pay it any mind. It's becoming a habit.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 08:28 am
@spendius,
Free markets require a buyer and a seller.

Just because you are willing to buy and no one is selling to you spendi doesn't mean it isn't a free market. It's all about supply and demand. No one is demanding what you are supplying. All you can do is stand on the shagging side lines and watch the market work without you. Your memories of way back when you were in the market make it seem like a novelty today.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 09:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Again, another tiresome and boring statement from okie; the expert at "nothing."

Another stupid statement by ci, who will deny the sun came up this morning if he feels crotchety today.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 09:44 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

Free markets require a buyer and a seller.

Just because you are willing to buy and no one is selling to you spendi doesn't mean it isn't a free market. It's all about supply and demand. No one is demanding what you are supplying. All you can do is stand on the shagging side lines and watch the market work without you. Your memories of way back when you were in the market make it seem like a novelty today.

A free buyer and a free seller that make decisions in an atmosphere of freedom, thats what "free" in the term "free market" means, Parados. How stupid can this thread by taken by whacko lefties?
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 12:07 am
@okie,
Some people suggest the fortunes of Obama have risen as the market has crashed, the latter being the catalyst.

Others have speculated the opposite, that Obama's rise in the polls have stimulated a rush to get your money out now before the Obama presidency.

Tough to correlate, but it appears entirely plausible the second case is just as supportable by the following graphs as the first. I would certainly be nervous as an investor in Exxon Mobil as just one example, as he loves to use that as his prime whipping boy, as if Exxon Mobil is a person with that name. I guess he may not realize the stockholders are thousands of people across the country with retirement plans and savings invested into the company, 401ks, retirement plans for teachers, firemen, and all manner of professions, from the poor to the rich in this country.

http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2008/10/09/94490e24b7fc9821205dcca976f9a4d5.jpg
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 01:05 pm
Quote:
There's enough blame to go around, but this wasn't just a collective failure. Three officials, more than any others, have been responsible for preventing effective regulatory action over a period of years: Alan Greenspan, the oracular former Fed chairman; Phil Gramm, the heartless former chairman of the Senate banking committee; and Christopher Cox, the unapologetic chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Blame Greenspan for making the case that the exploding trade in derivatives was a benign way of hedging against risk. Blame Gramm for making sure derivatives weren't covered by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, a bill he shepherded through Congress in 2000. Blame Cox for championing Bush's policy of "voluntary" regulation of investment banks at the SEC.

Cox and Gramm, in particular, are often accused of being in the pocket of the securities industry. That's not entirely fair; these men took the hands-off positions they did because of their political philosophy, which holds that markets are always right and governments always wrong to interfere. They share with Greenspan, the only member of the trio who openly calls himself a libertarian, a deep aversion to any infringement of the right to buy and sell. That belief, which George Soros calls market fundamentalism, is the best explanation of how the natural tendency of lending standards to turn permissive during a boom became a global calamity that spread so far and so quickly.


http://www.slate.com/id/2202489/
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 09:10 pm
Quote:
No one has bettered Keynes in his understanding of the psychology of financial markets. "Most . . . of our decisions to do something positive . . . can only be taken as a result of animal spirits . . . If animal spirits are dimmed . . . enterprise will fade and die" is one famous remark. "Speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise. But the position is serious when enterprise becomes the bubble on a whirlpool of speculation. When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done" is another. Professional investment, he wrote, is like "a game of Snap, of Old Maid, of Musical Chairs," whose object is to pass on the Old Maid -- the toxic debt -- to one's neighbor before the music stops. What makes the game toxic is not greed, which is universal, but uncertainty masquerading as certainty.

"The outstanding fact is the extreme precariousness of the basis of knowledge on which our estimates of prospective yield have to be made," Keynes wrote in his great book "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money" in 1936. We disguise this uncertainty from ourselves by assuming that the future will be like the past, that existing opinion correctly sums up future prospects, and by copying what everyone else is doing. But any view of the future based on "so flimsy a foundation" is liable to "sudden and violent changes. The practice of calmness and immobility, of certainty and security suddenly breaks down. New fears and hopes will, without warning, take charge of human conduct . . . the market will be subject to waves of optimistic and pessimistic sentiment, which are unreasoning yet in a sense legitimate where no solid basis exists for a reasonable calculation." Keynes accused economics of being itself "one of these pretty, polite techniques which tries to deal with the present by abstracting from the fact that we know very little about the future."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/13/AR2008101302090.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

this does not sound right to me. The picture I get is that those on the inside did not care what the risk was, they only cared that they could pass off their derivatives as low risk, get enough respected people to vouch that they were low risk. To me this crash was caused by a morality problem, not a human behaviour issue.
 

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