114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 07:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The conservatives are probably hoot'n and a holler'n in joyful glee; they "think" our economy is just fine.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 08:54 pm
Someplace a few days ago I talked about how bankruptcy needs to be allowed to happen, how we started to get off on the wrong track of saving companies that should not be saved when we did if for Chrysler. Someone agrees with me:
Quote:
A good way to see the problems with a fingers-in-the-dikes strategy is to look back to the first big bailout of modern times. Before A.I.G., before Fannie and Freddie, before Bear Stearns, there was Chrysler.

In 1979, when it was still the 10th largest company in the country, Chrysler found itself on the verge of collapse, largely because high oil prices had made its gas guzzlers unappealing. Company executives and union leaders came to Washington, hat in hand, arguing that Chrysler’s demise would wreak unacceptable damage on the American economy. Congress and the Carter administration responded by arranging for $1.2 billion in subsidized loans. The Reagan administration helped further in 1981 by restricting Japanese imports.

On its face, the Chrysler rescue was a huge success. Under Lee Iacocca, the company came out with the K-car line of smaller vehicles, like the Dodge Aries, as well as the original minivan. By the mid-’80s, Chrysler had repaid the loans. Mr. Iacocca appeared on the cover of Time magazine as “Detroit’s comeback kid,” and his autobiography became a No. 1 best seller.

You can draw a clear line from the Chrysler bailout to the recent attempts to steady Wall Street. Back then, Washington insisted on a few pounds of flesh, like a wage freeze for Chrysler workers, in exchange for aid. Mr. Paulson has done something similar by insisting that shareholders of the Wall Street firms benefit little from any bailout.

In 1979, the government structured the Chrysler deal so that taxpayers might earn a profit from it (which they did). This year, the Fed effectively purchased securities from Bear Stearns that it hopes to sell for a gain when the financial markets calm down. While it’s way too early to know if the strategy will succeed as well as it did three decades ago, it’s certainly conceivable.

But if you take a moment to think through the full Chrysler story, you start to realize that it’s setting a really low bar. The Chrysler bailout may have saved the company, but it did nothing, after all, to stop Detroit’s long, sad decline

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/business/17leonhardt.html?hp
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2008 06:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
The problem with bailouts (subsidy) is that the new growth areas are stunted. They are anti-capitalist.

They only like Darwin in the abstract.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2008 07:06 pm
WaMu reported to be for sale; 5 billion in deposits withdrawn in the last two months.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/story?id=5826656&page=1

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 09:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

One more comment, cyclops, your post supporting lotteries was PATHETIC, PATHETIC, PATHETIC! You can do better than that.


Bull ****, Okie. When you say 'down the drain,' what do you mean? The money didn't disappear. It didn't get spent on the cost of running the lottery. Where did it go? Explain. Because to me, it seems that the vast amount of money is... returned to some of those who play. Given to private citizens. That money is then funneled back into the economy. At what point is it wasted, exactly?

It's crazy to me, that you, a Republican, would seek to ban a voluntary activity, one which raises funds for the government on a voluntary basis. Nobody is forced to play the lottery. Aren't you a captain of personal responsibility? Do you really want things banned just b/c you don't agree with them?

You didn't respond to my post about earmarks on the other thread, and how ridiculous it is to target something which makes up less then 1 percent of our budget, as an area for serious reform.

Cycloptichorn

Another pathetic post, in which you demonstrate your basic lack of understanding economics. Efficiency in the economic system causes scarce resources that have alternative uses to be directed into the most efficient use of those resources. Plainly stated, lotteries are extremely inefficient mechanisms to inject into the economic system, and therefore governments should not be involved in this activity. I am all for freedom, but that does not include having a government become involved in activities that are not the job of government, plain and simple. The role and scope of government should be interpreted and practiced accurately, according to the constitution, and conducting a gambling operation is clearly not one of its responsibilities or jobs to do. The lottery has been devised as a voluntary tax, and it is clearly a very regressive and inefficient tax, and if you cared one whit about poor people, you would obviously oppose lotteries.

Earmarks may not be a huge portion of the budget, but on principle, I am opposed to them. 1% of the budget is still a huge amount of money, and if we could save 1%, it would amount to billions. A billion here and a billion there, and pretty soon you are talking about real money.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 09:56 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

The problem with bailouts (subsidy) is that the new growth areas are stunted. They are anti-capitalist.

They only like Darwin in the abstract.

Excellent point. The benefits of consequences are muted when bailouts occur. Lessons to be learned end up not being learned, and they are then repeated on a bigger scale by more companies and by a bigger and bigger percentage of the entire economic system. And adjustments to be made end up not being made. The vicious cycle continues until the entire system is weakened to the point of collapse, instead of weak elements being weeded out so that the larger system could remain healthy. Sometimes it becomes wise to lighten the ship to keep the ship from sinking.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 10:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
I agree with you that bankruptcies needs to be allowed, because it's cause is mismanagement and greed. Bailouts of any commercial business by the government only causes more pain later, because it doesn't let the competitive market play itself out. Greed should never be rewarded by a bailout. Never.

okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 11:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I agree with you that bankruptcies needs to be allowed, because it's cause is mismanagement and greed. Bailouts of any commercial business by the government only causes more pain later, because it doesn't let the competitive market play itself out. Greed should never be rewarded by a bailout. Never.



Ditto ditto ditto, ci, I could not say it better. Agreed 100%. And further, the senators and congressmen on the oversight committees should resign the committees and their office, and go home.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 11:32 am
@okie,
Chris Dodd and Barney Frank should resign today, and go home.

And I hope the FBI does its job investigating these firms, and throw the crooks in jail that cooked the books.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 11:39 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Chris Dodd and Barney Frank should resign today, and go home.

And I hope the FBI does its job investigating these firms, and throw the crooks in jail that cooked the books.


What about the Republicans who were in charge of those committees for the years leading up to 2006? They should resign and go home too, right?

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 11:54 am
You lot elected these people. So did we. Do you think they could meet the promises they dangled before your eyes because they could weave the winds or had the Midas touch? Don't be so naive. A Media outlet that told you that would get put on "Ignore".

You're like those people who grumble about having to wash up after they've scoffed a five-course dinner.

Are you saying that all their activities were negative?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
[quote="Cycloptichorn"]
okie wrote:

Chris Dodd and Barney Frank should resign today, and go home.

And I hope the FBI does its job investigating these firms, and throw the crooks in jail that cooked the books.


What about the Republicans who were in charge of those committees for the years leading up to 2006? They should resign and go home too, right?

Cycloptichorn
[/quote]
Yes, cyclops, the republicans suggested it needed fixing then, as evidenced by what John McCain himself said in 2005:

"Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae's regulator reported that the company's quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were "illusions deliberately and systematically created" by the company's senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae's former chief executive officer, OFHEO's report shows that over half of Mr. Raines' compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.

The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator's examination of the company's accounting problems. This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.

For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs--and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO's report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO's report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.

I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.

I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.


I understand Democrats blocked anything being done. Meanwhile, Franklin Raines, Obama advisor, made 90 million while working for Fannie Mae, cooking the books while Fannie Mae was going broke. This stinks to high heaven, and I for one want to see these people put under oath. This issue alone should make it clear that McCain is the better man. McCain saw the problem, while Obama did not and even has one of the main problems working for him. Talk about change, we need change alright and it isn't the kind that Obama vaguely talks about. He could start by firing one of the culprits from his staff.

700 BILLION, cyclops, thats 700 BILLION, you got that? [/b]
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:19 pm
@okie,
Raines will probably deny he has been asked for advice from Obama, but denying it may put him at risk for also being a liar in addition to being a crook.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:20 pm
@okie,
okie, Now you are also a liar. Franklin Raines was not an advisor to Obama.
Show proof other than your lies?

From ABC News:
Ad Wars Heat Up Over Campaign Advisers

Quote:

September 19, 2008 12:46 PM

ABC News' David Wright and Jennifer Parker report: Republican John McCain's campaign sparked a furious exchange of campaign attacks with the release of an ad linking Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama to a former Fannie Mae chief who was forced out by an accounting scandal.

The 30-second ad released Thursday titled "Advice" quotes the Washington Post as saying Obama got advice on housing and mortgage policy from Franklin Raines, who happens to be African American.

The McCain campaign ad said Raines made millions and then left Fannie Mae while it was under investigation for accounting irregularities.

The government took control of Fannie Mae earlier this month in an attempt to stabilize the housing market.

"Bad advice. Bad instincts. Not ready to lead," the McCain ad said of Obama.

The Obama campaign disputes that Raines ever advised Obama or the campaign, circulating an email to reporters Friday from Raines to McCain economic adviser Carly Fiorina stating that he is not an adviser.

"Carly: Is this true?" Raines asks above a forwarded note informing him that Fiorina was on television saying he was an Obama housing adviser. "I am not an adviser to the Obama campaign. Frank."

Obama's campaign said Fiorina did not respond.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From FactCheck:

http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/09/24/obamas-connection-to-raines/
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
He has been called for advice, according to some sources, ci, which he now denies, which might make him a liar. But you are apparently right, not an advisor on his staff.

Perhaps not proven a paid or close advisor, but I think James Johnson is a better case.

Bottom line, the man needs to answer some questions under oath, and fork over some money, in my opinion, as do a number of other people.

Final bottom line, 700 BILLION is at risk, and McCain is correct to go back to Washington and try to fix this problem, not just an ordinary problem.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:35 pm
@okie,
Talking to someone on the phone does not an adviser make. I'm sure that's news to you.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:38 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Quote:
Final bottom line, 700 BILLION is at risk, and McCain is correct to go back to Washington and try to fix this problem, not just an ordinary problem.


What has McCain ever fixed? He's a few days late on this one, and didn't show up to vote on hundreds of legislation. This is the same guy who said "our economy is fundamentally sound" just last week. You still don't get it.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I stand corrected, ci, but the main issue is the 700 BILLION, and why this problem was never fixed.
Probably both Democrats and Republicans are at fault, but so far I think the Democrats are the ones deepest into this. They will stand around and point fingers at Wall Street, and proclaim more oversight is needed, when in fact it was their oversight that failed already and many of their policies that caused this gigantic problem.

ci, the warning by McCain in 2005 is pretty damning evidence against the Congress.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
What has McCain ever fixed?


Apparently he tried on this one, ci, but it takes more than one senator to fix something. If you don't think so, you are the one that doesn't get it, ci. Ignorance is not a valid excuse for you on this one.

This is what he said:
"I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation."

Read the post with his entire statement, ci, that I posted. His colleagues did not take action. He at least tried. What did Obama do? Apparently nothing, except employ Jim Johnson, one of the crooks.
 

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