cicerone imposter wrote:Fooling around with the interest rate is a game played for the masses (of fools). It doesn't mean much in a world where mortgage interest rates runs close to 6 percent, credit card at about 20 percent, fuel and food cost increases in the double-digits, with salaries barely keeping up with inflation.
Now, our government is trying to sell us on the idea that $150 billion is going to save our economy.
There's no cure for stupid.
They are not stupid. We are in denial and the masses are stupid.
They are evil and genius manipulators
au1929 wrote:RJB
How long before we reach to the point of a depression rather than a recession? How long will it be before the nations refuse to keep buying our "paper" and redeem that which it holds. How long can we get deeper and deeper in debt. How long before our credit around the world is exhausted. This nation is living on a credit card that is fast approaching it's limit. Regarding the safety net you speak of where will the money come from to support it. In my opinion unless we can reawaken our industrial base and stop the bleeding we are heading for a hard landing.
When will Americans stop buying cheap crap they don't need? Why does anyone need a 100 square foot TV set, when they don't even have a library card?
Why do Americans think they need to see a dumb baseball game (Red Sox!) and pay $100/seat to do so or even $10 for a bottle of beer?
If Americans can afford giant TV sets, why then do they resist buying good health insurance?
Miller, Do you have a study that shows people who own 100 feet tv sets don't have health insurance?
Makes you wonder where the US economy would be if there weren't/wasn't the useless wasteful and immoral war in Iraq and Afghanistan?!
Following excerpt written By Martin Wolk
Chief economics correspondent
MSNBC
"Cost of Iraq war could surpass $1 trillion...
...
One thing is certain about the Iraq war: It has cost a lot more than advertised. In fact, the tab grows by at least $200 million each and every day."
Other articles say that the real cost could be closer to $2 trillion:
"The real cost to the US of the Iraq war is likely to be between $1 trillion and $2 trillion (£1.1 trillion), up to 10 times more than previously thought, according to a report written by a Nobel prize-winning economist and a Harvard budget expert."
I think the contribution to the impending recession and consumers wasting and squandering their tight dollars on frivolous entertainment devices is minor compared to the credit crunch from bad mortgages and foreclosure and the crashing home values.
One of the biggest current-day tragedies is that some families can't find good health insurance that is comprehensive and/or affordable. Of course, there are those families that gamble on not needing it or are so uneducated so as to not see the value in it....until it's too late - then bankruptcy can ensue - or worse, chronically ill children and breadwinners.
Thank you Ragman. Just now i wish to quote the same but you had posted it.
There are some interesting and perhaps tragic moral and ethical 'jump-up" issues brought up here:
"Are Americans so in need of distracting themselves due to HOPELESS out-of-control situations such as Iraq/Afghan war that the majority clearly doesn't want and an economy and government that seems to be careening out of control quickly? Are many Americans feeling so powerless so as to not only ignore the elective process AND ignore the health of their own families by not seeking out a viable solution to decent comprehensive health insurance for their families?
Or is this entrenched apathy? If it is apathy, why is it there? How can it be fixed. Who is the candidate that is most likely to help it improve? If no candidate can help this improve, what must be done?
Ragman, An interesting question about apathy on the part of most Americans. Let me take a stab at it, and maybe some more ideas will come out of it.
From the time of the great depression, our country has gone through many periods of economic growth - compared to the rest of the world. Although we represent only about five percent of the world population, we have become the largest economy in the world, and the most "powerful" in military terms.
These events have conditioned Americans to think we are invincible, but most do not understand macroeconomics, financial management at the government and/or personal level, and the "silver platter" syndrome took over the minds and souls of most people. That's the reason that most Americans today buy most everything on credit; something that was nonexistent fifty years ago. We not only buy our homes and cars on credit, but the food on our tables, the five tv's in our homes, and all the gadgets that "we just had to have."
American savings have gone into negative territory while our government did the same.
Before Bush initiated his preemptive attack on Iraq, he told the world that Saddam had WMDs that he could use against our allies (Israel), and perhaps sell them to our enemies (terrorist groups). Most Americans bought the sales pitch, and after five years in Iraq, we're spending a fortune there (about 2.7 billion every week), while our economy spirals into a recession. The cost of this war is obscene! Bush and company told us the war will cost us about fifty billion dollars. Some experts are saying it'll be between one and two trillion - at a time when our own country's infrastructure is breaking down, and many are without health insurance and jobs. Losing a home is no picnic either, but to Bush and company, we must "stay the course in Iraq until we succeed."
How do we admit we made a mistake? Bush's performance rating was over 80 percent when he started his illegal war, and it's still hovering in the mid-thirties. (Some people never learn any lesson from facts.)
Guilt of having made such a huge boner in our lives is very hard to admit to ourselves or to others. (Human nature?)
We've been seeing the destruction of the middle class for over seven years now, and all the evidence was there for all to see. Seven million more Americans are without health insurance; more middle-class families have fallen into bankruptcy; and now millions are losing their homes.
What does one do in a real nightmare?
Do you know how a father feels when he has to move his family out of their home and live in their car?
It's apathy now, because most Americans feel we can't control our government, our jobs, or saving our homes. That's the reason why the majority of Americans will not go to the polls in a snowstorm; it's not that important.
C I
a succinct, sublime soothing explanation about the presentday status.
My regards,
I think Ragman's above response is a relevant point to ponder over.
If only this unfounded, illegal, illogical barbaric war had not taken place..............
CI: But do Americans feel "it's not that important" or their vote seems to do nothing/have done nothing to stem the tide that has been turning against them?
Also, I see the middle class having been losing ground since perhaps 1973. We agree in principle, but not as far as time-frames. Wage-earner's real buying power has been on a decline since that watershed point.
And, speaking of credit car usage by Americans and the decline of American savings...this excerpt from a 2004-2005 PBS report:
"Ed Yingling, incoming president of the American Bankers Association, tells FRONTLINE that revolvers are "the sweet spot" of the banking industry. This "sweet spot" continues to grow as the average credit card debt among American households has more than doubled over the past decade. Today, the average family owes roughly $8,000 on their credit cards. This debt has helped generate record profits for the credit card industry -- last year, more than $30 billion before taxes."
Futhermore...looking at the culprit that helped perpertated this downward slide:
"Some experts say the profitability of credit cards really began twenty-five years ago, when the banking industry successfully eliminated a critical restriction: the limit on the interest rate a lender can charge a borrower. Deregulation, coupled with a revolution in technology that enables the almost real-time tracking of personal financial information and the emergence of nationwide banking, has facilitated the widening availability of credit cards across the economic spectrum. But for some, the cost of credit is often far greater than it appears."
Ragman wrote:CI: But do Americans feel "it's not that important" or their vote seems to do nothing/have done nothing to stem the tide that has been turning against them?
Also, I see the middle class having been losing ground since perhaps 1973. We agree in principle, but not as far as time-frames. Wage-earner's real buying power has been on a decline since that watershed point.
And, speaking of credit car usage by Americans and the decline of American savings...this excerpt from a 2004-2005 PBS report:
"Ed Yingling, incoming president of the American Bankers Association, tells FRONTLINE that revolvers are "the sweet spot" of the banking industry. This "sweet spot" continues to grow as the average credit card debt among American households has more than doubled over the past decade. Today, the average family owes roughly $8,000 on their credit cards. This debt has helped generate record profits for the credit card industry -- last year, more than $30 billion before taxes."
It's really part of both; the individual's perception leans toward one over the other. I also agree that the middle-class started losing ground in the early seventies when women/wives started to seek jobs in record numbers. That's when everybody had to keep up with the Joneses, except they found that the two income family eventually became a necessity rather than adding wealth to the family coffers. That also transformed into what we have today when women work in all the professional fields not "open" to them in the past, and more elected to stay single longer or as a choice.
C I
middle-class = dissipated and vanquished/ Vanished .
The extreme affluence and dire poverty can co-exist in India but not theis part of the globe.
I am not preaching Class war but I (out of my poor experience) wish to caution the development.
Change and hope we all need
and none of the available candidates will dare to risk their profession.
War had made havoc to the economy of USA.
Tracing American economic problems through the demographics of family historic trends:
All this underscores how complicated this economic picture has become.
Dual income families with less children per-avg-family (2.5 down to perhaps 1.9) but far more debt.
"...since the late 1960s. Today, two-thirds of all married women with children - and an even higher proportion of single mothers work outside the home, compared to just 16 percent in 1950."
So, there's also a large component of this problem that is could be traced to the personal spending and also the cost on taxpayers of social programs. This is another huge can of worms, but I digress.
My biggest concern and focus is the cost of the war in Persian Gulf-Afghanistan and the cost in human terms and the paralytic effect it has on every American ... make that world citizen's life.
Hell, with the same money that goes to that useless war we, as Americans, could be contributing more to feeding the World's hungry and sick.
Now there's the tragedy of this US economic boondoggle - the potential effects it has on the whole world.
the canadian stock index dropped about another 3% today .
wonder what will happen on wall street tomorrow .
from what i can tell the market is extremely busy , so the brokers are making commissions left and right - they are not complaining much ... yet .
the problem will be in trying to place new issues .
trying to raise more capital will be the difficult part for companies .
since even some bond insurers have now been downgraded/put on the watch list , even trying to place new bonds will be a tough sell .
hbg
hbg, That's right: companies will have problems raising money for capital improvement and hiring. It's gonna be tough out there, and I doh't see anything to reverse this trend at the moment - except the cash rich companies like Microsoft. The government stimulus package is a drop in the bucket that won't help our economy - short term or long term.
Fortunately for us in Silicon Valley, high tech products will continue to have a relative high demand in the world marketplace, and will be helped by the devaluation of the dollar.
hbg, If I had to make a wild guess on how our market will perform tomorrow, I'd say it'll go up, but not over 100 points. I see it as a kind of moderator for all the negatives of the past week. After tomorrow, it's anybody's guess where it'll go, but for the longer term - say six to eighteen months, it's gonna swing wildly by over 1000 points.
Rough morning for US stocks. The 75-pt rate cut helped out some short-sighted investors but has pretty much cemented the recession in the minds of everyone else.
Look for further losses in the weeks to come, as the Fed isn't doing anything which will actually help the situation. From Bonddad.blogspot.com:
Quote:Here's what the Federal Reserve should have said: We are Wall Street's bitch and will do exactly what the street wants us to do.
The problem is liquidity isn't the issue -- it's counter-party risk. So long as lenders are
1.) Concerned about getting repaid on existing loans and
2.) Concerned that a party might not repay even a short-term loan
Then loans aren't going to get made. It's that simple. And so long as we are in the middle of writedown hell, lenders loan ability is going to be seriously constricted.
Also note the the effective Fed Funds rate is now negative. The yearly increase in inflation is 4.1% and the Fed Funds rate is now 3%, meaning the effective Federal Funds rate is in fact -1.1%. This is the situation that got us into this mess.
We can't do the same thing which caused the problem, to solve the problem!
Cycloptichorn
canadian stock market is up broadly ; hope it is not a "dead cat bounce" .
i am sure there is more trouble coming . some canadian financial institutions have issued statements saying that it will be three to six months before they can "somewhat" accurately tell how much they were affected by by sub-prime mortgage loan losses .
hbg
Quote:A 'dead cat bounce' is a rather unpleasant term used to describe a small, short term recovery in a falling stock's price. Why? Well, if a cat was dropped from the top of a tall building it would bounce when it hit the ground - but it wouldn't bounce much and it would still be dead.
It might land on its legs, but it'll still be dead; describes today's world market to a "t."
let's forget "doom and gloom" and sing !
all together now !
Quote:Happy days are here again,
The skies above are clear again,
So let's sing a song of cheer again,
Happy days are here again.
All together, shout it now!
There's no one who can doubt it now.
So let's tell the world about it now,
Happy days are here again.
Your cares and troubles are gone,
There'll be no more from now on!
as sung by the COMEDIAN
HARMONISTS
