Where is the US economy headed?

mystery man wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Now, the American middle-class are a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings.

I didnt say that, you did.

It's strange though, that they're the most productive workers in this world.

I am saying that there is no reason that other people cant do what I did.
All it takes is some hard work and some sacrifice.
It means not using your credit cards for everything, it means not borrowing money you cant afford to pay back.
It means not buying a house or a vehicle you cant afford or not buying a new vehicle every year.
It means being responsible enough to pay off your debts, by whatever legal means you have to use.
If it means selling everything you dont need, then that's what you have to do.
If it means working 2 jobs, then that's what you have to do.

Like I said, I have no problem helping anybody that truly NEEDS help, but I dont understand why you or I should pay for others refusal to take responsibility for their bad decisions financially.

You have no concept about the middle class of America. You don't have any understanding of macro-economics, nor why the middle-class of America have lost purchasing power during the past seven years, lost their health insurance, and why some families have lost what they worked and paid for because of some unforeseen illness of a family member.

FYI, some of us have been very lucky; yes lucky, to have accomplished more than our visions of our youth. I struggled through school, but ended up working in management positions for most of my, comparatively short, "professional" career after college. We have no debt, and I can travel any place on this planet as often as I wish.

That doesn't mean I don't understand the plights of the middle-class and poor in America. Very often, it's not because they are lazy or lack responsibility.

Just because some of us have "made it," doesn't mean we worked any harder or "sacrificed" any more than the next family. The only "sacrifice" I made was to give my all when going to college, and then working 200 percent harder than the next guy - who probably had better grades or an advanced degree. I made that choice, because I knew "performance" on the job is what matters; not grades or degrees.

My luck was being at the right place at the right time - in the right generation. That accounts for 90 percent of my accomplishments.

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the right generation

So CI, what's this "right generation"?

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...why some families have lost what they worked and paid for because of some unforeseen illness of a family member...

They should have bought good and expensive health insurance and they'd have avoided all of their losses.
Why is that so hard for folks to learn?

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Miller wrote:

Quote:
...why some families have lost what they worked and paid for because of some unforeseen illness of a family member...

They should have bought good and expensive health insurance and they'd have avoided all of their losses.
Why is that so hard for folks to learn?

The cost of health insurance premiums have been growing at double-digit rates while they pay hasn't kept up with inflation; why is this so hard for people to understand?

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Miller wrote:

Quote:
the right generation

So CI, what's this "right generation"?

The "right generation" was back in the early sixties when I earned by college degree, and I had four job offers even before graduation. It's not the same world today; new grads have difficulty finding - any job.

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I "borrowed" this from Thomas on another a2k thread.

"The State of the Economy (Also see Part 2): Throughout the current economic expansion, American have been lukewarm or unhappy about the state of the economy. That's consistent with CBO statistics showing that most of the GDP growth went to the top 10 percent of the income distribution, whereas the bottom 80 percent gained little in real terms (i.e., after correcting for inflation). Gallup finds that by a margin of 2:1, they rate the state of the economy as "only fair" or "poor" rather than "Excellent or good". Asked to identify their major concern about economy, Americans name the cost of healthcare, jobs going overseas, and lack of good-paying jobs."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Miller wrote:
Quote:
the right generation

So CI, what's this "right generation"?

The "right generation" was back in the early sixties when I earned by college degree, and I had four job offers even before graduation. It's not the same world today; new grads have difficulty finding - any job.

No they dont, the jobs are out there.
BUT, new grads seem to expect to start at the top, with top pay.
They dont seem to be willing to start at the bottom and work their way up.

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What happens when the working class have no more money to spend on anything?

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I, too, was curious about what C.I. meant by the "right generation." I came out of college in '68 and had 3 offers ($7,500/yr-a high wage then) from accounting firms, despite their knowing that johnboy would only be available for a few months before getting drafted and going to Vietnam.

Which brings me to this little bit of a rant:
I have people come into my store and say they need 3 feet of canvas. Fine. We measure it out. Oh, no, they say. Maybe 3 yards, I WAS NEVER ANY GOOD AT MATH, they say.
Many of my employees can't figure out what a 10% discount off of $100 is without a calculator. I WAS NEVER ANY GOOD AT MATH, they explain.

I run a small business. Only 30 employees or so. Many of them are college graduates who expect that their degree in English or Art Appreciation will get them a well paid job. But it doesn't work like that.

We, the U.S., are falling behind other countries, in large part because of a failing education system. We have teachers who are underpaid and a philosophy of dumbing down the quality such that we produce too many English or Art Appreciation majors (no offense to either) rather than Math or Science majors.

I'll stop there. I have a solution to this, but you will have to nominate me for President first.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

My luck was being at the right place at the right time - in the right generation. That accounts for 90 percent of my accomplishments.[/color]

Mine wasn't 90% luck. It was mostly work and being responsible, such as working to earn money for college, and not spending it, and then studying in college. Then once I got a job, I showed up on time and tried to do what the boss told me to do to the best of my ability. I wouldn't call much of it luck. I will admit I am fortunate to have decent health, and I haven't died yet or have a serious disease, but I don't smoke, or drive drunk, so even some of that is not entirely luck.

You only confirm what Rush often says, that liberals believe success is only a result of winning life's lottery, that it isn't hard work.

I asked a person past 90 a question the other day about what is responsible for poverty, and that person said that after observing things over her life time, she had to conclude that most people's financial situation was as a result of their own responsibility or lack of it, not luck. I agreed wholeheartedly.

So I disagree wholeheartedly about things being mostly luck. It is not 90% luck. Also, a person can "make their own luck." This country is based on individual responsibility and achievement, and anyone that thinks it is all based on luck is totally wrong and has no understanding of this country or human nature.

Even if wealth is inherited, somebody made money based on responsible work or management, and if the heir does not manage it properly, it will be frittered away eventually.

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okie, It's because you live in the land of myopia. Our luck began and ended with our birth in the US at a time when our economy was growing after WWII. In most countries around the world, many professionals were lucky to eek out a living for their families. It wasn't that long ago that Russian professionals including doctors, lawyers, and college professors were making almost the same income as everybody else no matter what work they pursued. Luck.

Over 90 percent of the world population lives on less than $1 a day. Luck.

That our educational system in the US was well developed by the early 50s. Luck.

That the US hse been the strongest economy in the world for half a century. Luck.

That we had free education and cheap college tuition. Luck.

That we had more opportunities to succeed in the US. Luck.

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard; you'll stumble.

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Please don't lump all Liberals together in your mind, Okie. I have always believed that hard work is the key to a successful life, and I could accurately be described as a Liberal.

In the 13 years that I've been legally eligible for work, I haven't had a three-week period where I had a vacation, or no job, once. What can I say? I like being independent and managing my own life confidently. It worked out well - paid for college myself, bought cars (sold em), made a nice life at a young age.

I agree that you make your own luck. Hard work increases the amount of opportunities which will come your way. Sooner or later one of those opportunities works out, and you get ahead. Some people do fall ass backwards into money or happiness, but I'm not waiting on it.

Rjb,

I was bored my whole life in school. Children aren't challenged these days - there isn't time or money to push the smart ones hard enough and take care of the not-so-smart ones. On the opposite end of the spectrum, my little brother had difficulties with some mathematics - and the classes in public school failed to really help him.

My parents' hard work did the trick tho.

Cycloptichorn

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So, why do you suppose the U.S. is such a great place to be born, imposter? It couldn't be the free enterprise system or capitalism, which includes individualism and hard work, innovation, etc., could it? It had to be luck I suppose?

cyclops, I agree with what you say about luck and hard work. I think you harbor latent characteristics of conservatism.

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okie: So, why do you suppose the U.S. is such a great place to be born, imposter?

I think okie is brain-dead. I just outlined why we were lucky to have been born in the US.

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Some of the good fortune, part of the luck you talk about, was due to somebody else's hard work, imposter, not luck. Were our ancestors just lucky to build the country we were born into?

I will admit to the fact that some of our success is based on other people's hard work besides our own, but it wasn't much luck on their part that they accomplished what they did to provide the environment for us to succeed. It was rather their hard work. sacrifice, and responsible living.

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okie wrote:

Some of the good fortune, part of the luck you talk about, was due to somebody else's hard work, imposter, not luck. Were our ancestors just lucky to build the country we were born into?

You betcha. Our government made the right decisions at the right time.

I will admit to the fact that some of our success is based on other people's hard work besides our own, but it wasn't much luck on their part that they accomplished what they did to provide the environment for us to succeed. It was rather their hard work. sacrifice, and responsible living.

Tell that to mm.

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You seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth, imposter, one side saying we are so lucky to be born here, the other side saying how bad off the country is. Which is it?

And was it capitalism and free enterprise coupled with an atmosphere of a civil and religious society where the rule of law and relative lack of corruption made the country prosperous or was it something else, such as luck?

I agree with MM, it was hard work, not luck.

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okie wrote:

You seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth, imposter, one side saying we are so lucky to be born here, the other side saying how bad off the country is. Which is it?

Yes, we were lucky to have been born in the US, although there are other countries with good opportunities. Do you understand anything about "relative" concepts? It has to do with comparisons; not only within our own country based on time periods, but also compared to other countries. It's probably too spacial for your brain.

And was it capitalism and free enterprise coupled with an atmosphere of a civil and religious society where the rule of law and relative lack of corruption made the country prosperous or was it something else, such as luck?

Ofcourse! If you go back and read what I have written, you'll get the message, but I doubt you comprehent the English language too well.

I agree with MM, it was hard work, not luck.

Again; it's not only about "hard work." People in other countries also "work hard," but because of their economic-political environment, their opportunites are limited or non-existant. That's true in the US also; it's about job opportunities and luck. Comprende?

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Free enterprise and capitalism in a civil society with rule of law and less corruption encourages more hard work, imposter. Do you comprehend it? Bottom line, its hard work, not luck.

If people know they are working for the State, they don't work as hard, and if people know what they worked for will be taken from them by higher taxes and / or corruption, they don't work as hard.

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okie wrote:

Free enterprise and capitalism in a civil society with rule of law and less corruption encourages more hard work, imposter. Do you comprehend it? Bottom line, its hard work, not luck.

If people know they are working for the State, they don't work as hard, and if people know what they worked for will be taken from them by higher taxes and / or corruption, they don't work as hard.

okie, You wouldn't know "hard work" by any stretch of most people's defintion. You also have no understanding about "higher taxes" or corruption. Most countries in Europe and the UK pay higher taxes; why is their standard of living equal to or better than the US?

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Where is the US economy headed?

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