114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 06:57 pm
@reasoning logic,
Bain was in the business of increasing the market valuation of target companies with then current very low valuations in relation to their perceived potential, including many clearly heraded for near-term failure. Bain Capital's principal income (and source of investment capital) came from capital gains in the purchase and subsequent sale of stock in the companies they restructured. This clearly establishes the net economic effect.

You can readily find data on on Bain's income and capital gains inline line at Yahoo or any of several investment data sites. I'm not interested in doing your basic research for you.

The market values of Bain's investment funds, Bain itself, and the companies they restructured represents the composite effect of the assessments of millions of individual investors on the future economic performance of the company. History teaches us that this is generally the best and most reliable available indicator of this.

You are free to term this activity "vulture capitalism" as you wish. Please note there is nothing scientific in this term which merely represents a value judgment on the activity without clearly establishing the standards being applied, or the alternatives likely for the affected companies.

Do you have any video interviews of employees of companies that were successfully turned around by Bain and other "vulture capitalists, and whose job pprospects, salaries, and pension plans were much ,more secure?" How about interviews with former employees of failed companies that were not subject to the ministrations of "vulture capitalists? Without thgese to create a balanced impression of the alternative consequences your videos demonstrate nothing.


0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Aug, 2012 07:38 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Can you provide evidence in support of the conclusions of the author of the hit piece we were discussing?


I can show you video after video from a few years ago what the employees had to say. I am curious what you have to say though.


Nothing heard.

So far I see very little reasoning and even less logic in your posts or offered arguments. Perhaps you should consider an alternate username here. How about "thoughtless prejudgment" ??
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 12:53 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:

So far I see very little reasoning and even less logic in your posts or offered arguments


Empathic distress that covers a radius such as mine can not be understood by all people because we are not all wired the same way. We have some people who are blind and some who have perfect vision then we have this huge grey area where people are in between, sociopathy seems to work the same way.
It takes all of the people to make corporations work but when you have vulture capitalist thinking only about the dollar they can make for themselves then we have a very unstable social outcome.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 03:13 am
@reasoning logic,
What's the scientific difference between a vulture and a diner in a posh restaurant with a steak?

Is any capitalism not vulture capitalism?

Are you relying on emotive language to influence the under 5s?

Do you really think that asking how my biofuel equation relates to economics is an answer to the point? Really?
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 05:25 am
@spendius,
Quote:
What's the scientific difference between a vulture and a diner in a posh restaurant with a steak?


A vulture eats carrion, preferring rotting meat to fresh. A diner in a restaurant orders fresh, and expects fresh.

Quote:
Is any capitalism not vulture capitalism?


Purist capitalism is unregulated gambling. Regulated capitalism benefits more people than just the investment capitalist.

Quote:
Are you relying on emotive language to influence the under 5s?


Are you attempting to intimidate a polite poster on this board?

Quote:
Do you really think that asking how my biofuel equation relates to economics is an answer to the point? Really?


Do you really think that your "biofuel equation" was anything more than a dodgy attempt at an answer in the first place?

You're a bully, Spendius. Get off your hobby horse and apologise.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 05:33 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
So far I see very little reasoning and even less logic in your posts or offered arguments. Perhaps you should consider an alternate username here. How about "thoughtless prejudgment" ??


So far, I see a couple of bored bovver boys ganging up on a polite poster.

It would be in your interest to at least learn how to use a spellchecker, GOB.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 06:24 am
@Builder,
Quote:
A vulture eats carrion, preferring rotting meat to fresh. A diner in a restaurant orders fresh, and expects fresh.


Restaurant meat has been "hung". i.e. rotted.

Quote:
Purist capitalism is unregulated gambling. Regulated capitalism benefits more people than just the investment capitalist.


Regulated capitalism is only pretend capitalism.

Quote:
Are you attempting to intimidate a polite poster on this board?


No. rl was by using the word "vulture" to describe Mr Romney and the millions who will vote for him. That's intimidation.

Quote:
Do you really think that your "biofuel equation" was anything more than a dodgy attempt at an answer in the first place?


Not at all. The natural nutrient in the soil has long gone. One of the reasons for the push west was to find virgin soil, waste it and push further west. A free ride as long as there is more west to push into.

The quote rl praised was bullying. rl should apologise for posting partisan simplistic attacks on Mr Romney.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 08:38 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Restaurant meat has been "hung". i.e. rotted.


Not sure anybody would agree with you there, spendy. Hung in a coolroom, maybe.
Rotted? Not likely.

Quote:
Regulated capitalism is only pretend capitalism.


Well then, it was this "pretend" capitalism that kept the wheels turning right up to the point where the Glass-Stegal hedge was mown down, and the world was turned upside-down in the (purported) Global Financial Collapse, which, of course, we all now know to be an actual perpetrated fraud by the big banksters upon the global populace. The only people that have had the balls to actually realise and act on this are the Icelanders.

Funny that. They had the least to lose, and the most to gain.


Quote:
No. rl was by using the word "vulture" to describe Mr Romney and the millions who will vote for him. That's intimidation.


Mittens is possibly the most detestable person (cough,cough) to ever attempt to con the populace of America. The fact that you don't bother to research your facts before attempting to disgrace a fellow web poster, is not anybody's fault per se, but clearly not RL's problem. It's yours. Go do some reading.

Quote:
Not at all. The natural nutrient in the soil has long gone. One of the reasons for the push west was to find virgin soil, waste it and push further west. A free ride as long as there is more west to push into.


And this "push west" had something to do with something, I'm sure. Growing corn, or lucerne for that matter, has sweet fud all to do with anything in this post. It's simply one more nasty opportunity for you to take a swipe at RL. I sincerely hope you feel justified in taking this free swipe, because it's a one-off. Never to be swiped again> LOL.

Quote:
The quote rl praised was bullying. rl should apologise for posting partisan simplistic attacks on Mr Romney.


Even the most cursory of views of this Romney creature would reveal that if there's to be any apologising occurring, it should be coming from the whole of the US of A, for allowing such a creature to enter the political sphere, and after three short years of bribery, to have the gall to enter the bribery race for the top seat.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 09:06 am
@georgeob1,
Just for you GOBe1



Mitt Romney, it turns out, is the perfect frontman for Wall Street's greed revolution. He's not a two-bit, shifty-eyed huckster like Lloyd Blankfein. He's not a sighing, eye-rolling, arrogant jerkwad like Jamie Dimon. But Mitt believes the same things those guys believe: He's been right with them on the front lines of the financialization revolution, a decades-long campaign in which the old, simple, let's-make-stuff-and-sell-it manufacturing economy was replaced with a new, highly complex, let's-take-stuff-and-trash-it financial economy. Instead of cars and airplanes, we built swaps, CDOs and other toxic financial products. Instead of building new companies from the ground up, we took out massive bank loans and used them to acquire existing firms, liquidating every asset in sight and leaving the target companies holding the note. The new borrow-and-conquer economy was morally sanctified by an almost religious faith in the grossly euphemistic concept of "creative destruction," and amounted to a total abdication of collective responsibility by America's rich, whose new thing was making assloads of money in ever-shorter campaigns of economic conquest, sending the proceeds offshore, and shrugging as the great towns and factories their parents and grandparents built were shuttered and boarded up, crushed by a true prairie fire of debt.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/greed-and-debt-the-true-story-of-mitt-romney-and-bain-capital-20120829#ixzz255kG3sZA

Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 09:09 am
@spendius,
And just for you, Spendy, the doubter.

By making debt the centerpiece of his campaign, Romney was making a calculated bluff of historic dimensions – placing a massive all-in bet on the rank incompetence of the American press corps.

The result has been a brilliant comedy: A man makes a $250 million fortune loading up companies with debt and then extracting million-dollar fees from those same companies, in exchange for the generous service of telling them who needs to be fired in order to finance the debt payments he saddled them with in the first place.

That same man then runs for president riding an image of children roasting on flames of debt, choosing as his running mate perhaps the only politician in America more pompous and self-righteous on the subject of the evils of borrowed money than the candidate himself.

If Romney pulls off this whopper, you'll have to tip your hat to him: No one in history has ever successfully run for president riding this big of a lie. It's almost enough to make you think he really is qualified for the White House.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 10:19 am
I hope everyone here has read Matt Taibi's piece on willard and bain (of everyone's existence) capitol in Rolling Stone.

Willard will be elected. Will the right realize that they will suffer as much as everyone else after this puppet is in the WH? Who is the man behind the curtain? We will never know
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 10:53 am
@plainoldme,
Builder, What galls me more is the tone of those conservatives who talk about parents, family, and religious practices, then go and lie about the president of the US.

What's wrong with this picture?

Didn't their parents or church teach them it's not okay to lie?

Unfortunately, from the response at the convention, all those conservatives never do a fact check or challenge the lies that are told to the world.

Family values? Where?

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 11:02 am
@plainoldme,
Quote:
Who is the man behind the curtain? We will never know


I've seen a few names put forward on US News Channels.

I don't think Mr Romney will be elected.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 11:21 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Unfortunately, from the response at the convention, all those conservatives never do a fact check or challenge the lies that are told to the world.

Family values? Where?


Glad to see you've woken up to the spectre of illusion they've spun.

If bullshit had a representative, it certainly wouldn't look like a patty cake in a field.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 11:23 am
@spendius,
Quote:
I've seen a few names put forward on US News Channels.

I don't think Mr Romney will be elected.


Unfortunately, Spendy, these days it only matters who has outlayed the most money in this kind of race.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 12:23 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Just for you GOBe1



Mitt Romney, it turns out, is the perfect frontman for Wall Street's greed revolution. He's not a two-bit, shifty-eyed huckster like Lloyd Blankfein. He's not a sighing, eye-rolling, arrogant jerkwad like Jamie Dimon. But Mitt believes the same things those guys believe: He's been right with them on the front lines of the financialization revolution, a decades-long campaign in which the old, simple, let's-make-stuff-and-sell-it manufacturing economy was replaced with a new, highly complex, let's-take-stuff-and-trash-it financial economy. Instead of cars and airplanes, we built swaps, CDOs and other toxic financial products. Instead of building new companies from the ground up, we took out massive bank loans and used them to acquire existing firms, liquidating every asset in sight and leaving the target companies holding the note. The new borrow-and-conquer economy was morally sanctified by an almost religious faith in the grossly euphemistic concept of "creative destruction," and amounted to a total abdication of collective responsibility by America's rich, whose new thing was making assloads of money in ever-shorter campaigns of economic conquest, sending the proceeds offshore, and shrugging as the great towns and factories their parents and grandparents built were shuttered and boarded up, crushed by a true prairie fire of debt.


Probably a satisfying (to you) rant, but neither accurate, nor relevant to the issues at hand in this election.

Modern economies have shifted, from processing raw materials and manufacturing, to services and new product creation, both requiring quicker and more agile capital allocation. This in an observable world-wide phenomenon, and not the creationof scheming bankers as your source implies.

The "vulture capitalisn" and "creative destruction" process to which you refer are a practical necessity for continuing economic renewal in a compettitive world. This, of course, is anathema to those who wish to inhabit a stable and secure economic equilibrium, and who imagine they should somehow be exempt from the competitive forces in life and mature. This is but a lovely illusion, and it harms those who buy into it, as history amply demonstrates.

It was the "fair wage" mantra of the labor unions, and the aeal of environmentalists which drove American (and European) industry off shore to places where costs and environmental standards were lower. Some countries and industries have managed to survive and adapt through innovation and shared discipline (our IT and chemical industries and German labor practices are examples), but they are exceptions to the general rule.

Though the details are a bit arcane, from a financial perspective a fairly high level of corporate debt involves a lower net cost of working capital than retained cash. This is a well-known and established fact and working principle of which the rolling stone writer appears to be unaware.

As a related matter the debt crisis we and the rest of the world are facing has much more to do with public (i.e. government) debt than it does the debt of corporations.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 12:58 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

As a related matter the debt crisis we and the rest of the world are facing has much more to do with public (i.e. government) debt than it does the debt of corporations.


Well, of course it does. In spite of the new nomenclature out of Washington, investment is still not the same as spending.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 01:15 pm
@georgeob1,
We had a guy come on TV the other night with a wad of £20 notes in his hand. He said it was 2 grand. Then he said that if it was as thick as the taxi next to him was long it would be a million. Then he said that if it was as thick as the projected national debt it would go across the map to the west coast of India. £1.5 trillion he meant.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 02:27 pm
@spendius,
Thats what the US spends on its total military spending per year less 400 billion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Aug, 2012 02:43 pm
@RABEL222,
Here's a chart on Military Spending. The wars since GW Bush have cost over $800 billion and growing. These wars were never paid for, and that resulted in increasing of the national debt.

The GOP never bothers to mention these "facts."

And if people, especially conservatives, bothered to look, the DOD budget increased under Obama.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2nlh15i.jpg
 

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