RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:53 am
The earth did not sprout life everywhere at once...

But it sprouted it and spread it meticulously, It went maybe from Australia to South America and also around China to Alaska...
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:30 am
RexRed

You can't know that,

but anyway what's your point?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:32 am
rosborne979 wrote:
farmerman wrote:
A note to Rosborne-Do you now agree that this will no doubt go to the USSC? See how carefully the wording was made so as not to include Creation language and how it apperas to appeal to scientific "data"?.


In past cases, the court has recognized the underlying intent of the legislation and asked if it "furthered the states ends" to create such a law. Since the states already have the right to teach any valid science they want, the law adds nothing.

If it gets to the Supreme Court, I think they will find that what they are being asked to do is to validate science, because that's what is at the core of this. It isn't even about ID or Evolution, it's about what constitutes valid science. And I think the Supremes and any court before them is going to throw it out on that basis.

But what do I know.


It is more than that also the definition of life and powers beyond comprehension. : Wink
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:59 am
Eorl wrote:
RexRed

You can't know that,

but anyway what's your point?

So I will nail you 2 with my point and you 2 will be silent.. like shakespeare.. Smile
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 04:55 am
RexRed wrote:
Eorl wrote:
RexRed

You can't know that,

but anyway what's your point?

So I will nail you 2 with my point and you 2 will be silent.. like shakespeare.. Smile

What are you talking about? Frankly, this sounds somewhat like psychosis.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 04:59 am
That's actually occurred to me too Brandon
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:12 am
Pennsylvania legislators should be asking whether there is any academic value for including intelligent design theory in high school science. Most science educators do not feel that the theory even qualifies as science. Dover high school biology teachers refused to read the school board's "intelligent design statement" on the basis that it would be unethical to give students the impression that intelligent design is an accepted scientific theory.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 08:16 am
Thestic Evolution:
Theistic evolution: what difference does it make?
Like fire and ice, the Bible and evolution don't mix
by Dean Davis

Pope John Paul II, in a recent statement,1 supported ?'theistic evolution', the idea that God, over immense periods of time, used evolutionary processes to create all physical life-forms from a single organism.

Numerous evangelical leaders have also made disturbing concessions to evolutionary belief,2 in spite of increasing scientific evidence against it.3

Theistic evolution is a serious departure from the historic Christian faith; it represents a grave threat to the spiritual well-being of God's people and the effectiveness of their mission in the world.

Many would ask, ?'What difference does it make how God created?'

We need to understand that human beings are ?'wired for a worldview'?-God has implanted within us a deep yearning to find satisfying answers to the fundamental questions of human existence. ?'Where did I come from? Why am I here? How should I live? Why is there evil and suffering? Where is history going? What will happen when I die?'

Historic Christianity passionately argues that in the Bible we have a revelation from God that supplies not just a worldview, but the worldview: the truth about the ultimate questions of life. I would submit that second to the Lord Himself, this worldview is the Church's greatest treasure. In attempting to adjust it to modern theories of cosmic and biological evolution, we are in danger of destroying it altogether.

The Bible's message may be likened to a life-line which God throws out to a spiritually drowning humanity. This life-line is comprised of three strands of truth, indissolubly braided together: Creation, Fall, and Redemption. Theistic evolution undermines all three.

Strand one: Creation
The Bible proclaims that God supernaturally created ?'out of nothing' a beautiful, harmonious world in six days. The brief Creation Week perfectly suited His purpose, which was to provide a home and a stage for the chief actor in the forthcoming drama of history?-man, the creature uniquely made in His own image and likeness. Indeed, so special was man that God gave him prince-like authority over all nature, commissioning him lovingly to ?'subdue' it responsibly for his own enjoyment and the greater glory of the Creator (Genesis 1:24-28).

Here we first see the wisdom, goodness, and power of God, as well as the dignity and uniqueness of man in the Creation. But theistic evolution (and so-called ?'progressive creationism' as well) undermines all this. It denies the plain biblical chronology and sequence of God's creative acts (Genesis 1-2, Exodus 20:8-11). Even more seriously, it attacks the very character of God, identifying His creative activity with the violent, painful, deadly, and purposeless course of evolution. Theistic evolution also subtly undermines the dignity and sanctity of human life, by transforming the prince of Creation into a virtual afterthought of the creation process.

Strand two: Fall
According to Scripture, when the first man, Adam, (the father and representative of the human family) failed God's simple test of love and obedience, the entire race fell with him into guilt, indwelling sin, sickness, suffering, and death (Romans 5:12 ff). Not only this, but nature itself was also brought down. The ground was cursed, the elements disturbed, and the animal kingdom wounded (Genesis 3:17). In the words of the apostle Paul, through man's sin the whole creation was ?'subjected to futility' and ?'enslaved to corruption'. As a result, the whole creation waits and groans for ?'the revealing of the sons of God' in resurrection glory at the return of Christ?-for as in sin, so in final redemption: the destiny of the creation is inextricably bound to the destiny of man, (Romans 8:20-22).

This biblical teaching supplies a reasonable and spiritually satisfying explanation for the presence of evil and suffering in the world?-an absolutely crucial component of any satisfactory worldview. Furthermore, because it pictures sinful passions as alien to original human nature, it motivates us to resist them with help from Him who is opposed to them.

Theistic evolution, however, again throws all into confusion. It portrays God as using suffering and death to create, even though the Bible calls death ?'the last enemy' (1 Corinthians 15:26). It thereby diminishes our sense of His holiness and goodness.4

Strand three: redemption
God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to become ?'the last Adam', (Romans 5:12 ff, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49). The former Adam ?'sold' mankind into sin and the peril of eternal judgment. The ?'last Adam', on behalf of all who trust in Him, paid the debt to God's justice, thus ?'buying them back' into God's family through His own life, death, and resurrection. The rich inheritance of these believing sons and daughters includes forgiveness of sins, fellowship with God, spiritual transformation, and eternal, resurrection life in a glorious new world that Christ will create.

Thus, the backbone of the message of redemption is the stupendous revelation of the two Adams. But again, theistic evolution strikes at its very heart. This is because the compromise with evolution almost inevitably leads to a denial both of the historicity of Adam and his ruinous fall. Evolutionism clearly undermines the first Adam. But what is the effect of this on the Last Adam (Jesus Christ), whose very mission, according to Scripture, was to undo what the first Adam had so disastrously done?!

Insightful critics of theistic evolution have often commented on its inherent anti-supernaturalism. An aversion to the supernatural in Creation and Fall will sooner or later infect our understanding of redemption as well. The tendency, of course, will be to direct the eye of faith away from the Cross and second coming of Christ towards an ongoing evolutionary process.

We already have an example of this in the theology of Jesuit paleontologist Teilhard de Chardin, who rejected the orthodox doctrines of Creation, Fall, Redemption, Heaven, and Hell, in favour of the view that all humanity is gradually evolving towards a mystical, pantheistic union with God.5 Similarly, New Age theorist John White affirms, ?'The final appearance of the Christ will not be a man in the air before whom all must kneel. The final appearance of Christ will be an evolutionary event.'6

Conclusion
Theistic evolution, which at first glance seems a reasonable compromise with ?'science', undermines the entire biblical worldview.

Let us not, then, distort or discard any part of this great treasure in favour of the ever-changing opinions of science or philosophy. Evolutionism is the foundation from which the modern world system launches nearly every ideological attack against the faith of Christ. Here, then, where the battle is raging in our time, is where we are called to stand and fight.

Dean Davis is a graduate of Melodyland School of Theology. He presently serves on the pastoral staff of Good Shepherd Fellowship, and is Director of Come Let Us Reason, a Bible teaching ministry specializing in biblical Theology and Apologetics. He lives in Santa Rosa, California, USA. Return to top.

References and notes
Pope's message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, 22 October 1996. English translation from the French original provided by the Catholic News Service, cited in Watchmaker 3(6):3-6, 1996.
David Neff, Christianity Today, 1 June 1997.
Interested readers need only consult such works as Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Michael Denton), Darwin on Trial (Phillip Johnson), Darwin's Black Box (Michael Behe), Evolution: The Fossils Still Say NO! (Duane Gish), to realize that much has changed since the heyday of Neo-Darwinism back in the 1950s.
Long-age ?'creationism', because it accepts the assumed vast age of most fossils, must have God superintending (if not using) a world of death, disease and bloodshed, eons before any possible human sin. See Creation and Time: A Report on the Progressive Creationist Book by Hugh Ross, Van Bebber and Taylor, Eden Productions, 1995.
See D.H. Lane, The Phenomenon of Teilhard; Prophet for a New Age, Mercer University Press, 1996.
David Noebel, Understanding the Times, p. 146.

But again you no doubt will blow this off as it has come from AiG.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 08:23 am
Farmerman wrote
Quote:
The Catholic Church "In view of the insurmountable mountains of evidence" embraced evolutionwhen I was in grade 2 in the late 50sand againas a College Directive by Pope John PaulII .


When the man who popularized evolutionary ideas?-Charles Darwin?-died, his family wanted him buried in the local churchyard. However, biologist Thomas Huxley?-who ardently ?'preached' humanism to large crowds?-wanted Darwin buried at Westminster Abbey, that great church opposite London's houses of Parliament.

Many famous men and women (including kings, queens, and scientists) are buried in this exquisite church building. Huxley, known as ?'Darwin's bulldog', realized that if the church were to honour Darwin, this would help popularize Darwinism.

Darwin's family reluctantly agreed, and on April 26, 1882, Darwin was interred in Westminster Abbey adjacent to Sir Isaac Newton.

At Westminster Abbey, I could not find Darwin's grave, so I asked an attendant. I found that I had been walking over it. Darwin was buried in the floor (the foundation) of the church.

I thought, ?'A man who popularized a philosophy that is a direct attack on the foundations of the Church is honoured by being buried in the foundations of a church.'

What a picture! As the Scripture warns, ?'If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?' (Psalm 11:3). Darwinian evolution, with its teaching of death and bloodshed millions of years before man evolved, is a direct attack on the foundations of Christianity and its teaching that death and bloodshed are a direct result of the sin of Adam (Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:12; Romans 8:20; 1 Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:4).

Guess that about sums it up.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 09:06 am
The Pennsylvania house representatives who introduced the bill to include the teaching of intelligent design (HB 1007) also introduced 5 other bills on the same day (HB 1008 through HB 1012). All 6 proposed bills deal with public schools. 3 out of the 6 bills deal with religion in public schools! HB 1009 proposes repealing religious garb prohibitions in public schools. HB 1012 proposes an act to provide for the display of "In God We Trust" in classrooms and other areas in public school buildings.

HB 1007 through HB 1012 were all referred to the house education committee on March 16, 2005. Will the legislators be able to claim there is no religious intent for their promotion of intelligent design theory?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 10:18 am
wandeljw wrote:
HB 1007 through HB 1012 were all referred to the house education committee on March 16, 2005. Will the legislators be able to claim there is no religious intent for their promotion of intelligent design theory?


Guilty by association? Smile
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 10:46 am
rosborne,

To me, it looks like they carelessly left religious "fingerprints" on the work they did that day!
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:19 pm
Quote:
I thought, ?'A man who popularized a philosophy that is a direct attack on the foundations of the Church is honoured by being buried in the foundations of a church.'


You're wrong. He didnt directly attack the Church. And by Church (being capitalized) I assume you mean Catholic Church which embraces evolution. ;-) So obviously it's not a direct attack. Also others have found ways to incorporate the two together like Rex.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:24 pm
El-Diablo wrote:
Quote:
I thought, ?'A man who popularized a philosophy that is a direct attack on the foundations of the Church is honoured by being buried in the foundations of a church.'


You're wrong. He didnt directly attack the Church. And by Church (being capitalized) I assume you mean Catholic Church which embraces evolution. ;-) So obviously it's not a direct attack. Also others have found ways to incorporate the two together like Rex.


I have believed in evolution AND creation for over 20 years...
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:27 pm
I have no problem with incorporating the two or even not believing in evolution. But don't make Darwin (and evolution) out to be the Devil's incarnate and the enemy of the church and an evil man and a nazi and a commie and w/e weird **** I've seen thrown at him
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 10:57 pm
Black holes are a peculiar thing... I don't know if I should believe in something I cannot see... Smile
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 01:17 am
RexRed wrote:
Black holes are a peculiar thing... I don't know if I should believe in something I cannot see... Smile

You can if there are logical reasons to support the idea of its existence.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 03:21 am
I don't believe in black holes.

From what I've read and what I've been told they do seem likely to exist though.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 06:24 am
Why don't you believe in them then?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 06:29 am
I think they probably exist...not the same as belief.
0 Replies
 
 

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