Evolution? How?

It seems things have got pretty bad in the US.

I find it quite astounding that :

"...student groups espousing Evangelical Christianity are attacking many University Science programs in their newsletters and by campus proselytizing. "

My feeling is that we have not stamped on these people hard enough out of a reluctance to cause hurt. But religious fanatics of various colours are doing real damage. Its time to redress the balance, to fight FIRE with FIRE.

That is to fight fudamentalist irrational religious extremism with factual intelligble rational explanation.

Well, I have to disagree , all that will do is create martyrs in their minds. I firmly believe that, with constructive engagement, we can showthese people the silliness of their beliefs. There are a few Creationist Geologists. They admit, often, that they keep their views to themselves lest they get involved in arguments that they dont have the data to back up their points.
For example, when a geologist I know ,who was a young earther, got into a discusssion about "evidence for the flood", he couldnt keep up. His evidence was mostly belief, rather than fact based.

There is no stratigraphic evidence for a worldwide flood.

Its the softly softly approach that has only encouraged them.

The earth is not 6000 years old like 2+2 does not = 5.

I respect other people's deeply held religious beliefs, but there comes a point when sensitivities have to give way to sense.

We just cannot afford to give these religious fanatics anymore space.

Steve, It's more like 2+2 does not = 6 (thousand years).

could be they will publish a theologians mathematics text where any answer is just as valid as any other, providing that's what Jesus would have worked out.

WOW!

What proportion of the US population take these people even remotely seriously do you think?

I agree (but only when religious fanatics interfere with the science education of our young people).

Well IF you evolutionists ARE correct then, when I die... pfffffffffffft thats, it lets recycle the atoms into something else and keep on evolving. BUT if the Bible is right then there is an eternal place in heaven waiting for you if you want it. Go ahead and blow this off an arcane nonsense but if you haven't experienced the love of God then you won't get it. I really do believe there are Religious ramifications involved with evolution. I think it is grouped under philosophy. There are extremeists on BOTH sides of the issue, however most creationists prefer to take a more neutral stance. The trouble with the extremists evolutionists is that they are knocking bricks out of the foundation of the christians beliefs. (and probably vise versa). (BTW if you use the correct mathematical formula 1x1x1=1 you'll understand) Below is an interesting story:
We read in Judges 21:25, ?'In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes. A tale of two graves tells the story and should stand as a warning to all nations.
When the man who popularized evolutionary ideas?-Charles Darwin?-died, his family wanted him buried in the local churchyard. However, biologist Thomas Huxley?-who ardently ?'preached' humanism to large crowds?-wanted Darwin buried at Westminster Abbey, that great church opposite London's houses of Parliament.
Many famous men and women (including kings, queens, and scientists) are buried in this exquisite church building. Huxley, known as ?'Darwin's bulldog', realized that if the church were to honour Darwin, this would help popularize Darwinism.
Darwin's family reluctantly agreed, and on April 26, 1882, Darwin was interred in Westminster Abbey adjacent to Sir Isaac Newton.
At Westminster Abbey, I could not find Darwin's grave, so I asked an attendant. I found that I had been walking over it. Darwin was buried in the floor (the foundation) of the church.
Tears came to my eyes. I thought, ?'A man who popularized a philosophy that is a direct attack on the foundations of the Church is honoured by being buried in the foundations of a church.'
What a picture! As the Scripture warns, ?'If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?' (Psalm 11:3). Darwinian evolution, with its teaching of death and bloodshed millions of years before man evolved, is a direct attack on the foundations of Christianity and its teaching that death and bloodshed are a direct result of the sin of Adam (Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:12; Romans 8:20; 1 Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:4).
After visiting London, I travelled to Scotland. While walking, I saw a statue of John Knox, who had led the Protestant Reformation in Scotland in the sixteenth century. This man was a fiery preacher. He was one of the most influential Scots of his day. He certainly had a colourful history, but he stood for the authority of the Word of God.
In his later years, Knox preached at St Giles' Cathedral, in Edinburgh. I visited this cathedral. At the midday service, the clergyman told us a number of times, ?'Pray to find the god within you.' This New Age message was not the message John Knox preached!
Having read that Knox was buried near the church, I asked an attendant where Knox's grave was situated. She answered, ?'I do not know'.
?'Oh yes', came the reply, ?'over there in car space 44'.
I and my travelling companions went over to car space 44, and looked under a car for the grave marker. A small yellow tile with no name on it marked the spot where Knox is believed to be buried. His initials are engraved on the window of the church opposite car space 44.
As I pondered this, my thoughts went back to Westminster Abbey. A man who popularized an idea that attacks the very foundations of the Church, is honoured by a church and buried in a prominent place for the world to see. Yet, a man who stood for the authority of the Word of God is all but forgotten, and his grave is housed in a parking lot.
The church adopted Darwin, and trampled on the Word of God. This is what has happened to Britain. It has spread to the rest of Europe and around the world.
In the United States and Australia, Christians are shocked at the alarming rate at which humanism is spreading. What is happening? The majority of the Church has adopted Darwinian evolution. What happened in Britain is happening in America and Australia.
Oh, how our nations need to heed the cry of Hosea, ?'Hear the word of the Lord … for the Lord hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land' (Hosea 4:1).

Do you belive in invisible pink unicorns?

You need to belive in invisible pink unicorns for this exact reason, the invisible pink unicorns make a habit out of trampleing to death people who do not belive in them.


















Now doesn't that make for a convincing argument.

Einherjar, Just be sure you are wearing your asbestos pajamas when you cash in your chips :wink:

On CREATION CONFERENCE 2005, where did all these "doctors" earn their degrees? No wonder we're having so much controversy in the Terri Schiavo case.

An old Celtic saying: never play leapfrog with a unicorn

Obviously some of the people on this board got their degrees somewhere. Does Farmerman, Cicerone Imposter and others have degrees? Where did you get them?
Now here's the list again of creation scientisis in case you missed it earlier:
Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.

Dr Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr James Allan, Geneticist
Dr Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
Dr John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
Dr Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Dr David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Dr Bob Compton, DVM
Dr Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr Ted Driggers, Operations research
Dr André Eggen, Geneticist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist
Dr Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist
Dr Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist
Dr George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr Russell Humphreys, Physicist
Dr James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist
Dr Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr Dean Kenyon, Biologist
Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Prof. John Lennox, Mathematics
Dr John Leslie, Biochemist
Prof. Lane P. Lester, Biologist, Genetics
Dr Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr Alan Love, Chemist
Dr Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr David Menton, Anatomist
Dr Angela Meyer: Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr John Meyer , Physiologist
Dr John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr. John W, Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr Henry M. Morris, Hydrologist
Dr John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist
Dr Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr Ian Scott, Educator
Dr Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist
Dr Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr Andrew Snelling , Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark , Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Dr Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist
Dr Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr Carl Wieland, Medical doctor
Dr Lara Wieland, Medical doctor
Dr Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Dr Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr Henry Zuill, Biology

Oh I almost forgot these:

Which scientists of the past believed in a Creator?
Note: These scientists are sorted by birth year.

Early
Francis Bacon (1561-1626) Scientific method. However, see also
Culture Wars:

Part 1: Bacon vs Ham
Part 2: Ham vs Bacon
Johann Kepler (1571-1630) (WOH) Scientific astronomy
Athanasius Kircher (1601-1680) Inventor
John Wilkins (1614-1672)
Walter Charleton (1619-1707) President of the Royal College of Physicians
Blaise Pascal (biography page) and article from Creation magazine (1623-1662) Hydrostatics; Barometer
Sir William Petty (1623 -1687) Statistics; Scientific economics
Robert Boyle (1627-1691) (WOH) Chemistry; Gas dynamics
John Ray (1627-1705) Natural history
Isaac Barrow (1630-1677) Professor of Mathematics
Nicolas Steno (1631-1686) Stratigraphy
Thomas Burnet (1635-1715) Geology
Increase Mather (1639-1723) Astronomy
Nehemiah Grew (1641-1712) Medical Doctor, Botany
The Age of Newton
Isaac Newton (1642-1727) (WOH) Dynamics; Calculus; Gravitation law; Reflecting telescope; Spectrum of light (wrote more about the Bible than science, and emphatically affirmed a Creator. Some have accused him of Arianism, but it's likely he held to a heterodox form of the Trinity?-See Pfizenmaier, T.C., Was Isaac Newton an Arian? Journal of the History of Ideas 68(1):57-80, 1997)
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz (1646-1716) Mathematician
John Flamsteed (1646-1719) Greenwich Observatory Founder; Astronomy
William Derham (1657-1735) Ecology
Cotton Mather (1662-1727) Physician
John Harris (1666-1719) Mathematician
John Woodward (1665-1728) Paleontology
William Whiston (1667-1752) Physics, Geology
John Hutchinson (1674-1737) Paleontology
Johathan Edwards (1703-1758) Physics, Meteorology
Carolus Linneaus (1707-1778) Taxonomy; Biological classification system
Jean Deluc (1727-1817) Geology
Richard Kirwan (1733-1812) Mineralogy
William Herschel (1738-1822) Galactic astronomy; Uranus (probably believed in an old-earth)
James Parkinson (1755-1824) Physician (old-earth compromiser*)
John Dalton (1766-1844) Atomic theory; Gas law
John Kidd, M.D. (1775-1851) Chemical synthetics (old-earth compromiser*)
Just Before Darwin
The 19th Century Scriptural Geologists, by Dr Terry Mortenson
Timothy Dwight (1752-1817) Educator
William Kirby (1759-1850) Entomologist
Jedidiah Morse (1761-1826) Geographer
Benjamin Barton (1766-1815) Botanist; Zoologist
John Dalton (1766-1844) Father of the Modern Atomic Theory; Chemistry
Georges Cuvier (1769-1832) Comparative anatomy, paleontology (old-earth compromiser*)
Samuel Miller (1770-1840) Clergy
Charles Bell (1774-1842) Anatomist
John Kidd (1775-1851) Chemistry
Humphrey Davy (1778-1829) Thermokinetics; Safety lamp
Benjamin Silliman (1779-1864) Mineralogist (old-earth compromiser*)
Peter Mark Roget (1779-1869) Physician; Physiologist
Thomas Chalmers (1780-1847) Professor (old-earth compromiser*)
David Brewster (1781-1868) Optical mineralogy, Kaleidoscope (probably believed in an old-earth)
William Buckland (1784-1856) Geologist (old-earth compromiser*)
William Prout (1785-1850) Food chemistry (probably believed in an old-earth)
Adam Sedgwick (1785-1873) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) (WOH) Electro magnetics; Field theory, Generator
Samuel F.B. Morse (1791-1872) Telegraph
John Herschel (1792-1871) Astronomy (old-earth compromiser*)
Edward Hitchcock (1793-1864) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
William Whewell (1794-1866) Anemometer (old-earth compromiser*)
Joseph Henry (1797-1878) Electric motor; Galvanometer
Just After Darwin
Richard Owen (1804-1892) Zoology; Paleontology (old-earth compromiser*)
Matthew Maury (1806-1873) Oceanography, Hydrography (probably believed in an old-earth*)
Louis Agassiz (1807-1873) Glaciology, Ichthyology (old-earth compromiser, polygenist*)
Henry Rogers (1808-1866) Geology
James Glaisher (1809-1903) Meteorology
Philip H. Gosse (1810-1888) Ornithologist; Zoology
Sir Henry Rawlinson (1810-1895) Archeologist
James Simpson (1811-1870) Gynecology, Anesthesiology
James Dana (1813-1895) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
Sir Joseph Henry Gilbert (1817-1901) Agricultural Chemist
James Joule (1818-1889) Thermodynamics
Thomas Anderson (1819-1874) Chemist
Charles Piazzi Smyth (1819-1900) Astronomy
George Stokes (1819-1903) Fluid Mechanics
John William Dawson (1820-1899) Geology (probably believed in an old-earth*)
Rudolph Virchow (1821-1902) Pathology
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) (WOH) Genetics
Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) (WOH) Bacteriology, Biochemistry; Sterilization; Immunization
Henri Fabre (1823-1915) Entomology of living insects
William Thompson, Lord Kelvin (1824-1907) Energetics; Absolute temperatures; Atlantic cable (believed in an older earth than the Bible indicates, but far younger than the evolutionists wanted*)
William Huggins (1824-1910) Astral spectrometry
Bernhard Riemann (1826-1866) Non-Euclidean geometries
Joseph Lister (1827-1912) Antiseptic surgery
Balfour Stewart (1828-1887) Ionospheric electricity
James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) (WOH) Electrodynamics; Statistical thermodynamics
P.G. Tait (1831-1901) Vector analysis
John Bell Pettigrew (1834-1908) Anatomist; Physiologist
John Strutt, Lord Rayleigh (1842-1919) Similitude; Model Analysis; Inert Gases
Sir William Abney (1843-1920) Astronomy
Alexander MacAlister (1844-1919) Anatomy
A.H. Sayce (1845-1933) Archeologist
John Ambrose Fleming (1849-1945) Electronics; Electron tube; Thermionic valve
The Modern Period
Dr Clifford Burdick, Geologist
George Washington Carver (1864-1943) Inventor
L. Merson Davies (1890-1960) Geology; Paleontology
Douglas Dewar (1875-1957) Ornithologist
Howard A. Kelly (1858-1943) Gynecology
Paul Lemoine (1878-1940) Geology
Dr Frank Marsh, Biology
Dr John Mann, Agriculturist, biological control pioneer
Edward H. Maunder (1851-1928) Astronomy
William Mitchell Ramsay (1851-1939) Archeologist
William Ramsay (1852-1916) Isotopic chemistry, Element transmutation
Charles Stine (1882-1954) Organic Chemist
Dr Arthur Rendle-Short (1885-1955) Surgeon
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892-1979) Surgeon
Dr Larry Butler, Biochemist
Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915-1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer

Jack, I got my BS degree from Cal State Hayward, and worked in management for the greater part of my career. That's the reason I mentioned the fact that the populace of this country is in great confusion, because so many "doctors" are at odds about Terri Schiavo's condition.

Thanks C.I. I don't want to get into the Teri Schivo thing because what we hear on the local news and read in the papres in only a VERY small part of what is really going on. I work at the Modesto Bee newspaper and saw what went on with the Scott Peterson thing. If you could only see what WASN'T printed. The right to lifers have one side of the story and the right to deathers have the other...Kinda like the creationists and evolutionists. I've seen your mention of Teri Schivo earlier and didn't respond because I didn't feel it was appropiate. BTW I had some cousins went to Cal State Hayward. Seems to be a good school.

Jack,

There are many scientists whose personal beliefs include belief in a Creator. This does not mean that their belief is based on science.

How can a mundane answer explain how something came out of absolutely nothing?

Insult is the lowest form of debate, but testimonial is the second lowest, and, logically, is of no significance. Every argument must be judged on its merits alone, and the qualifications of the person who advanced it are irrelevant.

If evolution started chemically who put the chemicals here? Chemicals don't just appear out of the ether... Well chemicals are made of atoms... who put the atoms here? Well atoms are made of electrons and quarks... well who put the quarks here? Well the quarks are part of the fiber of time... Well who put the fibre of time here? Well they are strings that vibrate and make dimensions... Well who put the strings that vibrate there? Well they think that strings are this foam substance that everything is made up of... again who put the foam there?

Gillette?