Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 09:40 am
Chumly wrote:
I'm the other one wrote:
Chumly wrote:
I'm the other one wrote:
Chumly wrote:
I'm the other one wrote:
Chumly wrote:
I'm the other one wrote:
May I ask how you think we got here?
What makes you think "we got here"?


LOL, then why are we here? How?

You two are intelligent beings, I know you can tell me. Very Happy
What makes you think there is a reason why we are here?


I don't know. Isn't everything for a reason?

I'm not talking about reason as we have a mission either. I mean reason as in...oh...I'm not sure the word I'm looking for, drats.

So you think maybe we "just exist" or are an illusion or something else?
In the small picture it appears as if some things have a reason, as cause and effect appear real, but I know you are talking about the big picture. Man has a very hard time grasping that there no known reason for anything, but that is the facts, as things stand now.

It is also important to understand that there is no defined need for a reason for anything in the big picture, things can simply be without reason. Yuppers I know that is counterintuitive and frustrating because our brains want to find purpose and intent in all things.


I know that to be true. I can't help but get deeper in thought and contemplate life alot. It's after 2 am here and I need to hit the sack, so, yes...I do think too much. That's my problem.

Are you satisfied knowing that we will feed the worms after death? Or..it doesn't matter because we've served our purpose here...living life.
I am not satisfied at all knowing that we will feed the worms after death, it pisses me off big time!


Well atleast you are one athiest I've met who doesn't care for the idea, lol.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 09:58 am
PPD wrote:
Some have contended that structures such as the eye, for example, may have evolved independently in as many as 40 separate instances or MORE, but this simply stretches credulity.


I've seen you bring this up before, without substantiating it. So -- show us somebody who's making this claim, so we at least have the opportunity to evaluate it.


Basically, this refers to what is known as the "blind watchmaker" analogy, first advanced in a different form by Cicero nearly two thousand years ago (a man who cannot be accused of being a Christian), and getting its name from the analogy constructed by the Reverend Paley in his 1802 book with the tedious title: Natural Theology, or Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity collected from the Appearances of Nature. Paley posited that finding a watch in a field infers a watchmaker. He predated Darwin, but the very work itself is good evidence of just how nervous the theists had already become by the preponderant weight of evidence which was already accumulating in contradiction to the thesis of a divine creation.

How very rude of you Dog, to ask the member "real life" to substantiate his assertions. He's never been in the habit in the past, and it seems just bad manners to expect it at this late date.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:03 am
I'm the other one wrote:
First off I need to say that I have nothing against science by no means. I like science and do think certain kinds of evolution are possible. Just not the big bang theory.


A typical and hilarious theist non sequitur. A theory of evolution does not stipulate any particular cosmic origin. Speaking of a theory of evolution and of "the big bang," or any other cosmic origin, as though somehow related, is speaking of apples and boulders--not even as close as apples and oranges, which are at least both fruits.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:05 am
I'm the other one wrote:
Aren't the big bang and evolution (your form of how we got here) one and the same?


No.




(This is so entertaining--almost ten pages of nonsense since last i looked in.)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:06 am
I'm the other one wrote:
I would like to know where people think a homo-erectus originated from?

I mean...their pre-life forms. Was it the cave-man? Ape? Dinasours that just fizzled out?

I'd just like to know how you people think and maybe I could understand you a little bit better. As well as evolution.

Thank you.


Here ya go
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:12 am
I'm the other one wrote:
Eorl wrote:
other one, the answer is not as simple as you'd like but let's start with pre-human earth.

I am 99.9% sure that we (humans) evolved from pre-human beings like homo-erectus.


Like the big headed beings? With fur?

homo-erectus?

Sounds kind of kinky for some reason.


Actually, pre-human species in our ancestry had small brain cases than we do. The size of the woman's birth canal could have been a limiting factor. Babies are born with skulls which have "sutures" that later fuse together so that the head will be "pliable" as the infant comes through the birth canal.

Larger brain cases are no longer necessary. We have removed our memories and our ability to acquire and assimilate information from our heads to libararies, universities and research institutions. Sadly for the Christians, far too many of them dispense with those very useful adapations.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:13 am
timberlandko wrote:
I doubt its illusion, simply for the fact the math works so exquisitely well. Perhaps it is a personal shortcoming, but I find it exceedingly, even insuperably, difficult to argue against logic.


One is reminded of Dr. Johnson deliberately stubbing his toes against a stone to refute the metaphysicians.


(I really am having too much fun.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:17 am
real life wrote:
Richard Dawkins


Wrong, the argument has been advanced for a "watchmaker" for at least two thousand years--see my post above.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:18 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Laughing Oh, gawd, you mean we are all Canucks?


Well, sort of . . . by way of Africa . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:24 am
Have i exceeded the "too much fun" limit yet?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:27 am
I'm the other one wrote:
First off I need to say that I have nothing against science by no means. I like science and do think certain kinds of evolution are possible. Just not the big bang theory.

Whether you "like" the Big Bang Theory or not, the math works and observations confirm the math; most recently, Here, discussed Here
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 10:51 am
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Richard Dawkins


Wrong, the argument has been advanced for a "watchmaker" for at least two thousand years--see my post above.


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood his question. I thought he was asking who had proposed that the eye had evolved on 40 or more separate occasions.

At least, that is what my answer was referring to. Sorry if that wasn't his question, but I thought it was.

------------------

Are you saying that evolution has been around as an idea or a theory for 2000 years? Not clear on what you're talking about here-- a 'blind watchmaker' or just 'a watchmaker' ? You've referred to both, but they are not the same argument, are they?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 11:01 am
No, i am not saying that a theory of evolution (as known in its Darwinian/Wallacian form) is 2000 years old, i am simply saying that the argument for a creator which can be described as the argument from complexity, and which is now popularly known as the "watchmaker analogy," has been around that long. It does demonstrate, however, that questioning the creation thesis is at least that old.

No, those are not "the same argument," blind watchmaker is simply a bit of cleverness on the part of those who reject Paley's watchmaker thesis.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 11:54 am
http://www.abpnews.com/886.article
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:31 pm
That's cute RR . . . a link to Associated Baptist Press' page on a new specious contention about "Noah's Ark" . . .

The 'About Us' link at that site wrote:
About Us

Associated Baptist Press is the nation's first and only independent news service created by and for Baptists.

Working out of our Jacksonville, Fla.- based headquarters, and with bureaus in Washington and Dallas, ABP provides daily coverage of Baptist news, news from the nation's capital, and other general news and information of concern to Christians in the U.S. and around the world.

ABP is supported through the generous contributions of friends, several Baptist institutional partners and foundations and is led by a self-perpetuating, independent board of directors.

We welcome your interest in ABP and would enjoy communicating with you further, should you have questions about the ministry of Associated Baptist Press.


Now there's a disinterested, unbiased source (insert goofy, rolly-eyed emoticon here) . . .
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 02:47 pm
Quote:
While Crouse believes several historical references to the ark -- most notably from ancient historians like Josephus -- help prove that it did exist in modern record, he said modern satellites and the Turkish army, which tramps through the area often, have found nothing to irrefutably prove the ark theory.
Leave out the word irrefutably and you realise they have found no proof at all. No evidence whatsover. Zip. Just another scam to extract cash from the gullible.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 03:35 pm
meanwhile back in the not so real world of British education system

from BBC news

Quote:
Creationism

The NUT (natiojal union of teachers) has reiterated its opposition to the government's programme of having 200 city academies by 2010.

Academies are independent state schools backed by outside sponsors, who put in £2m in return for a majority stake in their running.

It has been claimed that schools in the North East backed by Christian millionaire Sir Peter Vardy have been teaching Creationism alongside evolutionary scientific theory.

Some NUT delegates want the teaching of "creationism or intelligent design as a valid alternative to evolution" to be outlawed.
0 Replies
 
Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 04:29 pm
timberlandko wrote:
I'm the other one wrote:
First off I need to say that I have nothing against science by no means. I like science and do think certain kinds of evolution are possible. Just not the big bang theory.

Whether you "like" the Big Bang Theory or not, the math works and observations confirm the math; most recently, Here, discussed Here


Okay, thanks Timber.

Very interesting.
0 Replies
 
Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 04:40 pm
Setanta wrote:
I'm the other one wrote:
First off I need to say that I have nothing against science by no means. I like science and do think certain kinds of evolution are possible. Just not the big bang theory.


A typical and hilarious theist non sequitur. A theory of evolution does not stipulate any particular cosmic origin. Speaking of a theory of evolution and of "the big bang," or any other cosmic origin, as though somehow related, is speaking of apples and boulders--not even as close as apples and oranges, which are at least both fruits.


Then, how would you presume we came to be? I mean, we had to start somewhere. And I'm still waiting for someone to answer my homo-eretus thing.

I'm realy curious how you feel about this.

I'm so glad you find this amusing. Smile
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 04:45 pm
Quote:
If this bone was not essential to the animal's functioning, then again evolutionary principle has been violated because it should not have evolved.


I could surgically remove your cecum, and you would survive -- at least, you'd survive without the cecum; you might not survive my surgical technique.

I could remove a horse's cecum and it'd be dead before you could say "hi-ho silver."

It's not a question of whether something is essential, but rather a question of an inherited tool kit and relative advantage. Perhaps the bone (pure speculation here, just for sake of example) was important to the proto-fishes for prehension, combat, digging, receiving radio signals from extraterrestrials, or whatever. The family was successful, the family diversified, the family retained certain familial traits that may or may not have been of any importance any more. (Just as the color of one's skin might have meant the difference between life and death at some point in the past, whereas now it may -- in some utopian land -- have no bearing on survival whatsoever.) However, unless there is a selective pressure against the retention of this structure, it's unlikely to vanish too rapidly. Sort of like our little (outside, fifth) toes: they serve virtually no appreciable function, but we've still got them. The fish's genes (in my hypothetical world; I know diddly squat about this species in particular and little more about genetics in general, though probably quite a bit more than the average bear) still program for that bone to form. Whatever genes influence the development of this bone change (or not) as chance allows until, my happy circumstance, it ends up somewhere else where it performs a useful function -- in this case, vibrating sympathetically with outside noise. Now, perhaps, it confers an advantage to the individuals with the particular suite of alleles that favors it's development.




As to the eye thing -- I resorted to looking at answersingenesis for their review of Dawkins' book "Climbing Mt. Improbable" to purview the dogmatic objections vis-a-vis evolution of the eye.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v12/i1/improbable.asp

I find nothing about the eye having evolved mutliple different times (perhaps a different book?). I do find an irreducible complexity argument. Much of the critique is centered around the necessity of complex decision-making machinery being necessary to interpret optical information -- that is, there's no point in detecting light if you don't have a brain. There are many single-celled Eukaryotes and Prokaryotes today that have systems for the detection of light and that put this information to very good advantage. There are bacteria that respond to light by moving toward it or away from it, and the only machinery necessary for this to occur is an "eyespot," a flagellum or three, and a simple chemical cascade that results in greater or lesser flagellar activity in response to increasing or decreasing intensity of light.

There's also the usual "biochemistry itself is too complicated to have evolved," but that issue is hardly unique to the topic at hand.
0 Replies
 
 

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