Evolution? How?

real, again totally wrong, and a misuse of examples. You no doubt (well, yes, doubt, considering your previous record) know of the famous Urey and Miller experiments in the 50s, which produced precursor chemicals needed for life to exist, from the simple application of energy to the chemicals likely present on a primordial earth. No information present at all, except chemical properties that all elements have as part of ther very existence.

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Timber, I'm glad you haven't slipped back into propositioning people. It's so unseamly (sic).

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username wrote:

real, again totally wrong, and a misuse of examples. You no doubt (well, yes, doubt, considering your previous record) know of the famous Urey and Miller experiments in the 50s, which produced precursor chemicals needed for life to exist, from the simple application of energy to the chemicals likely present on a primordial earth. No information present at all, except chemical properties that all elements have as part of ther very existence.

Are you going to tell me that there was NO effort to organize the experiment, bring the chemicals together in proximity and in measured amounts, remove contaminants and other factors that could cause failure and apply a measured amount of a specific energy source for a measured amount of time in a specified manner?

No information, eh?

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I hardly expect you to understand why your entire approach to entropy is absurd in that it is based on thorough misunderstanding, mischaracterization, and misapplication of science and knowledge. Perhaps THIS will help - though I doubt it, as it appears your mind (if the term may be so loosely used) is itself functionally a closed system, wholly isolated from outside influence.

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The Holy Bible is not necessarily a closed system...

Joh 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

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The father, the son, and the holy duvet...

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RexRed wrote:

The Holy Bible is not necessarily a closed system...

Joh 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

No. It's a Book. It's a book that consists of many books. It is, what many would consider, an Omnibus of books. I don't know about you, but the last I checked, a book wasn't an energy system.

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It is if you burn it.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

RexRed wrote:
The Holy Bible is not necessarily a closed system...

Joh 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

No. It's a Book. It's a book that consists of many books. It is, what many would consider, an Omnibus of books. I don't know about you, but the last I checked, a book wasn't an energy system.

No, but it is connected by an energy system that reveals it...

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Lightwizard wrote:

It is if you burn it.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

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If you would have seen how primitive the Miller Urey experiments were, youd have been amazed. In 2005, the experiment was rerun with information that we now have. The early atmosphere was actually over saturated with H2 and ws, by virtue of its ionized state, a reducing environment. That accounts for many more and more complex compounds, almost ready for the RNA "world" concept. Cyclic compounds, surface reacting with hydroxyl radicals , have been shown to adjust their structures in many of a myriad of ways. WHen science discovered that in the RNA world, replication and addition could occur in a huge number of ways, this gave strong evidence that , like entropy , there are a lot of different pathways to order in life and not a predetermined model.
Like Gould used to speak of'The parallel to a library with (or without a librarian) is a good analogy of order disorder" Once order had been achieved through trial and error, it was set (Dewey decimal system or LOC systems). However, there are many different states of disorder possible. None of which is exclusive or a "goal" of a systrem undergoing senescence .

It affirms Dollos Law and many Laws of P Chem.

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The current article in the National Geographic looks into DNA of peoples all around the world. Homo sapiens orignated in Africa, not "created" in accordance with the bible of Adam and Eve. Populations in the Middle East came much later.

DNA tracing allows scientists to track the migration of humans all around this planet beginning in Africa about 70,000 to 50,000 years ago - long prior to the creation of earth based on Genesis.

Most paleoanthropologists and geneticists agree that modern humans arose some 200,000 years ago in Africa based on human fossils found in Omo Kibish, Ethiopia.

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RexRed wrote:

The Holy Bible is not necessarily a closed system...

Joh 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Somehow, I'm certain the irony entailed by that bit of wholly circular, internally-referential confirmation of the closed-system nature of scriptural canon goes right over the heads of some folks.

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timberlandko wrote:

RexRed wrote:
The Holy Bible is not necessarily a closed system...

Joh 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Somehow, I'm certain the irony entailed by that bit of wholly internally-referential confirmation of the closed-system nature of scriptural canon goes right over the heads of some folks.

It goes over their heads because they have been indoctrinated by the bombardment of sloppy theists that don't understand the nature of how God breathed and made the Bible and how God can look ahead (foreknowledge) and see the canon and the choices "holy" men/woman make...

But you can't get past step one with this logic so how could I expect you to understand the deeper matters...

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timberlandko wrote:

ros, thats about it in a nutshell; entropy is a tendency, subject to external influence. As with much of physics, it is an absolute only in the strictest theoretical sense, though as a tendency, its effect readilly may be observed, subject, of course, to relational effect imposed by external influence.

Yes, I thought so. Interesting. Thanks for the confirmation.

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Could someone explain the presumed rationale behind trying to tie evolution / creationism / entropy into some sort of congruent argument.

Or at the least what creationists are trying to argue as to how/why entropy helps make their case.

I sure can't see how the net result of entropy unhinges evolutionary theory and/or supports creationism.

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There is no coherence there, nor relevance either, Chumly; the ID-iot proposition functionally and foundationally is inconsistent with the concepts of coherence and relevance.

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Would it be safe to conclude that all things have come into existence through the operation of natural law?

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What is your definition of natural law?
How firm a conclusion would you be expecting?

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timberlandko wrote:

........entropy is a tendency, subject to external influence. As with much of physics, it is an absolute only in the strictest theoretical sense, though as a tendency, its effect readilly may be observed, subject, of course, to relational effect imposed by external influence.

I think it's interesting the way you use the word tendency to try to softpedal entropy.

The 2nd Law is scientific law, just as gravity is.

It could easily be said of gravity:

Quote:

gravity is a tendency, subject to external influence. As with much of physics, it is an absolute only in the strictest theoretical sense, though as a tendency, its effect readilly may be observed, subject, of course, to relational effect imposed by external influence

Since, as we discussed earlier, birds and insects etc can overcome gravity using energy and information -- gravity is only absolute in the strictest theoretical sense because it's effect is in relation to external influence (the bird's ability to fly etc).

Yes, objects do tend[/i] to fall to the ground, unless acted upon by an external influence. Laughing

Evolutionists like to softpedal entropy because they realize that it is devastating to their case. But it is there, and it cannot be ignored.

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