Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:55 am
Setanta wrote:
Why do you assume children are poorly educated in science?


I know that question isn't directed at me, but I assume children are poorly educated in science because some fell for the trick of thinking that ID was science.

You know, I just read the news today and found it funny. These ID supporters kept claiming that there was no religious basis behind it, yet the moment they lose they go and say this:

Quote:
Peter Briggs of the Family Research Council, a conservative group, described the ruling as a dangerous precedent.

"That's a terribly slippery slope if we're going to say in a democracy, in a free country, that people who are motivated by religion are excluded from the public script."


Laughing

Oh that just cracks me up.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:58 am
You're right WO'D, the question wasn't directed at you, and you missed the point altogether.

So, "real life," why do you assume that children are poorly educated in science?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 07:10 am
If real life would read the Decision by Judge Jones he would see that the judge went into a brief history of the Creation/ID movement to the 1920's. Judge Jones made the point that, from 1920 till the 1960s, the Creationist side was taught and they (as a direct counter to Darwin) had lobbied state legislatures to actually prohibit the teaching of evolution . There were actual legal sanctions for teaching evolution through this period in many states, so real lifes position doesnt include the fact that for many years prior it was "ALL CReation, all the time"
The Arkansas .

anti evolution law was the first to go (The citation used was the Epperson case where Judge Jones stated that ARkansas' law wanted to preclude evolution because it was contrary to Genesis. (All this was used to lay out the conclusion that, yes indeed ID IS religion.
After USSC struck down the anti-evolution laws, the courts were presented with a "balanced teaching" experiment. This



was struck down in the 6th circuit because it was clearly based on religion.
It was afterthis time (1940's) that Morris' group conceived of "Scientific Creationism" The oxymoron of the last century. In that point judge Jones stated in his opinion that the term (he agrees its self cancelling), was so developed by fundamentalists , he said
"Fundamentalist Organizations were formed to promote the idea that Genesis was supported by scientific data" and in the courts deliberation they considered the SCopes and Epperson decisions in that (in the courts words)"Creation Science Organizations were really Fundamentalist religious entities that wanted Creationism in schools as part of their ministry" (I found this a really well crafted sentence) where everything modifies "Ministry"
Then, from the Mclean decision judge Jones stated that
Creation Science relies upon a "contrived dualism" that recognize only 2 mutually exclusive explanations of life on earth,creationsim and (godless) evolution. Thus Creation science relies upon a supernatural intervention that cannot be explained by natural causes (and as Miller testified for the plaintiffs)
"This cannot be proven by empirical investigation so it is neither testable nor falsifiable)
{Herein the document displays a series of footers that require one to go to the court record wherein the Creationists have appealed on the duality condition by invoking a false reason that "eevolution can neither be tested nor falsfed either"
Ref. Poppers rules on falsifiability. Popper himself claimed that evolutions underpinnings were the classical sciences which, on their own are testable and falsifiable so that the Creationists were arguing at an incorrect level.

Therefore the "balanced teatment approach" was found, by the courts to have no valid purpose in science.
That brought us to 1987 and the EDWARDS decision which struck down the last "pro Creation " teaching law.

Thus faced with this reality , The Creationists came up with Intelligent Design, invoking an argument that went back to Thomas Aquinas. The argument , in the form of a (now) famous (at least among teachers whove mobilized since these assaults) the syllogism reads
"wherever complex design exists, there must have been a designer" and "Nature is really complex so QED"
The plaintiffs side (understandably,) was the only side that saw to bring in a theologian who stated convincingly (remember these are the judges words) that EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS who the designer is. SO judge jones goes on to explain his applied tests , which include the following

IS the teaching of ID trying to provide an endorsement of religion? and

Would a reasonable person (observer) from
1thegeneral public
2the target audience of Dover (the students)
3The citizens of Dover
be convinced as to who the designer is and what would the purpose of this convincing be
To these ends the plaintiffs brought in Barabara Forrest, who wrote "Creations Trojan Horse". In her testimony she established the examples of what the ID leadership has actually been quoted saying. Thus , she and John Hought made the connections convincingly to Judge Jones that "any interested onserver wiould instantly understand who the designer ws"

The defense made some very bad errors. Their key witness < MIke Behe, is still a scientist and he did not lie , either for his side or to the court. He stated his position unambiguously that
"My description of Irreducible complexity is the employ by the designer of a purposeful arrangement of the body parts (of an organism) As such, he employed the very words of William Paley in the 1803 works (Which were brought up and are included in the documents)
The judge, recognizing that the ommission of the word GOD and , instead sunstituting Intelligent Designer, had employed a tactical ommission.

At that point judge jones brings up the defenses witnesse in a basis of "how not to be credible in court"
Both Behe and Minnich (the key witnesses) both admitted that they believe that the designer was GOD.

The judge retained his heaviest technical criticism for the use of "Of PAndas and People"
The fact that it was written by Creationists
was published by a Creationists society
and worst of all

It , in its earlier drafts had substituted Inetelligent Design For the word Creationism , at least 150 times without changing any of the following words. This , in the judges language drew outr some of the harshest technical criticim and the judge used words that were not complimentary about the whole movement.

It reads like a good tv documentary and Im ony about half finished. The judge , in the last half of his 139 page decision, seems to be taking apart the cynical approach employed by the Dover schoolboard in the "pushing" of this dreck (my word not judge jones)

The fact that real life predicted the outcome shows that deep down, in a well presented case where the issues are debated in open air, the case for ID is the same case that was employed by Henry Morris and Duane Gish.

The judge said at the end
I B da judge and I say

1 I find for the plaintiffs

2 The defendents are enjoined from the teaching of ID in science

3 The plaintiffs are entitled to damages and costs.


We can once again look to Pennsylvania as an example of "we may not always get it right but we can fix it when we F**k it up"


and as far as real lifes admonition
Quote:
BTW that is now what evolutionists will have to do. Get over it. Now there is no one to blame but yourselves, right?
.

When I get done reading about the duplicity, the fraud, the dishonest approaches to insert ID into theDover curriculum, Ill post a bit of a rebuttal to the above golden shower.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 07:41 am
PS, we coulda saved the court a lot of money. Many of the arguments posted by the IDers were outed herein over the last few years.

I recall set and my "set-to" with an avowed Creationist who was pushing a fossil find

Timbers sets of URLs from the Nastional Academy of science (The substance of which , was brought up in judge Jones decision and didnt make the IDers look too bright)

ros discussions of irreducible complexity and the comment he made last year about "isnt this just the same argument that Creationists have employed?" Yep, that was in there too.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:55 am
real life wrote:
Hi Ros,

Yeah, I did ( and do ) stand up for my viewpoint. But I am also discerning enough to know which way the wind blows.


Sorry RL, your attempt to fit yourself into a slot which allows you to be right in some way no matter what, is completely transparent.

real life wrote:
It was also kind of a joke, Ros. Lighten up. You know, the loser telling the winner "I told you so." A joke. Get it? *sigh* You evolutionary types are so uptight.

Let's try again......It's like the loser in an election telling the winner to "get over it".........Get it?


Hmmm, I'm trying, but it's still not funny.

real life wrote:
Which brings us back to my questions, which you didn't have the brass to answer


I see you've started repeating my phrases. I'll consider it a compliment.

And yes, I did answer it. Here, I'll repeat/rephrase it for you: Any country which is producing high school graduates who do not know why ID is not science, is not teaching the meaning of science or its place in philosophy, well enough.

real life wrote:
Now you've got to come up with credible explanations WHY kids are so poorly educated in science when it's YOU who are in control of science education and HAVE BEEN IN CONTROL FOR DECADES.


On this part RL, I would somewhat agree. Putting aside of course, your disingenuous assigning of "evolutionists" as controllers of science education, the general problem of improving education as a whole is something we all need to strive for.

I have an entire other thread started on "how toImprove Science Education in the US
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 09:54 am
Lisa Anderson, in a recent story for the Chicago Tribune, wrote about how Baylor University is helping conservative Christian students handle exposure to evolutionary theory:
Quote:
For creationist or other very conservative Christian students, the initial exposure to modern biology and neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory can be akin to "culture shock," said Randall O'Brien, provost and vice president for academic affairs at Baylor University, a moderate Baptist school in Waco, Texas.
"For many young people, college is the first time in which their own perspective on the world is being challenged," said Ron Mahurin, vice president for professional development and research at the 105-member Council for Christian Colleges & Universities.
"If you ask me what do we teach here at Baylor, we're really as much about interrogation of faith and learning as we are about integration of faith and learning," O'Brien said. "At Baylor, we believe Jesus came to take away our sins, not our minds."
Nonetheless, he said, faculty are aware that "sometimes the word 'evolution' is very offensive to people who come from home-schooled situations."
"My intent is to be honest and truthful and to engage all questions as a person of intellect and a person of faith and not feel that truth is some saber-toothed tiger that might jump out of the woods and devour my little, anemic God," he said. "If truth leads to God, what fear do we have going after it?"
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:05 am
I've started to rethink it all out. Why do we have to obscure the facts either way? It's not like our personal opinions are going to change the truth.

As a student, I don't think the whole evolution/i.d thing has anything to do with our inability in practical science. It's not like the I.D ers are pushing for "magical explanations" for everything.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:08 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
... It's not like the I.D ers are pushing for "magical explanations" for everything.

Not everything - just everything that exists, did exist, or will exist - apart from that, they really don't challenge anythiing.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:00 pm
Bad Birdie . . .


heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .


okbye
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:01 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Many of the arguments posted by the IDers were outed herein over the last few years.


Only "many" eh.Many men wear frilly underwear around the house.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:03 pm
One assumes you speak from personal experience . . .
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:11 pm
no must resist urge...to comment
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:27 pm
Steve-

Setanta can't resist the obvious.It's a good job he's not a trout.

I'm told it is soft and gentle on the skin and is an aid to irresponsibility.Sensitisies feeling.Touchy-feely.Induces empathy with the feminine.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:29 pm
Yup, sounds like personal experience from where i'm sittin' . . .
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:16 pm
Do not be ridiculous.I have a thick,bushy black beard in order to dispel such fetid suppositions and I wear long johns permanently apart from in the bath.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 03:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
Yup, sounds like personal experience from where i'm sittin' . . .
Laughing Laughing

But even so, there are worse things in this world, as I'm sure you will agree.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 03:13 pm
spendius wrote:
Do not be ridiculous.I have a thick,bushy black beard in order to dispel such fetid suppositions and I wear long johns permanently apart from in the bath.
ok you recovered pretty quick there spendy, I'm convinced
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 03:14 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Yup, sounds like personal experience from where i'm sittin' . . .
Laughing Laughing

But even so, there are worse things in this world, as I'm sure you will agree.


I could not agree more . . . such as wearing frilly underthings beneath his wooly longjohns . . .
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 03:57 pm
http://www.bioexchange.com/news/news_page.cfm?id=21387

Check this out...
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:02 pm
Setanta wrote:
Why do you assume children are poorly educated in science?


Well it's not looking too good at your local public school

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html


Also

Quote:
Students at grades 4, 8, and 12 in all categories of private schools had higher average scores in reading, mathematics, science, and writing than their counterparts in public schools. In addition, higher percentages of students in private schools performed at or above Proficient compared to those in public schools
(from Perie, M., Vanneman, A., and Goldstein, A. (2005). Student Achievement in Private Schools: Results From NAEP 2000-2005 (2006-459). U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office.)
0 Replies
 
 

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