rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 03:46 pm
real life wrote:
Hi Username,

Many scientists who, over the course of several centuries, built the scientific foundation of the modern world we inherited and enjoy today actually did believe God created the world and all that was in it. It didn't seem to hamper them in their exploration of science.


Indeed. Those people seem to have been able to separate their beliefs from their results, to keep an open mind, and to accomplish valid science as a result. In so doing, they even discovered evolution, both stellar and biological. And many people, religious and otherwise, continue to contribute to that body of scientific knowledge today.

Luckily, the persuit of science does not require that anyone hold a particular belief system (or a belief system at all). It only requires that theories be limited to naturalistic explanations (part of the definition of science).
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 05:43 pm
snood wrote:
Setanta wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
The indomitable, indefatigable, ineluctable rl put fingers to keyboard and wrote:
What we do NOT have is empirical evidence of one creature changing into another (evolution).


Thus revealing the crux of the problem; rl has a flawed concept of what evolution is and how it works.


I cannot agree with this, Big Bird. "real life" understands these things--but is here as a propagandist, and cannot admit to them. He understands fully well what we are talking about. But he is here, at a site with a high page rank, which gets many viewers. He is counting on people reading at the most, the last few pages of this thread. Therefore, no matter how many times he gets blown out of the water, he'll trot out the same crapola again. He doesn't care what you or i think--he's only concerned to infect the casual reader with his sophistry.


Will he be utilizing black helicopters next? Sad


*thoopa thoopa thoopa thoopa thoopa thoopa thoopa thoopa*

Hey Snood,

Wanna ride? These are cool. Laughing
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 05:47 pm
Snood,

A friend of mine once told me, "Hey just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I don't have enemies." Laughing
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 05:53 pm
timberlandko wrote:
rl wrote:
To understand evolution is not necessarily to agree with it, Timber. Sorry (not really) to bust your bubble.

There is no question of agreeing or disagreeing with evolution, no bubble to bust. On the one hand are those who see that all the available evidence supports the proposition, none contradicts it, that the schema adequately fulfills the requirements of verifiability and falsfiability, relies on no extraordinary claims, and stands to logic and reason. On the other hand are the luddites of today, who hold superstition and magic to be the driving force of the universe.

The upside of the Creationist/IDer assault on science is that it is doomed, and its inevitable fate will envelop it in fairly short order, as such things go. The more exposure these modern-day luddites achieve for themselves - and that is their key focus, to increase their exposure - the more they discreditmtheir ludicrous proposition in the mind of The Electorate. They - the luddites - chose to take their fight to the polls and the courtrooms. They're leading themselves to their own slaughter. They see the travesty that just occurred in Kansas as a signal victory on the road to triumph, whereas in reality it marks a tipping point, marking the beginning of the transition of their proposition from contrioversy to laughing stock. The fight is far from over, but the luddites are engineering their own defeat. Eagerly - witlessly, but eagerly.


I've already given Farmerman my assessment of the likely outcome of the Dover case. No matter which side "wins" politically or in a given courtroom, however, really has no bearing on which view, evolution or ID, is correct. I think we all would agree with that.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 06:01 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Hi Username,

Many scientists who, over the course of several centuries, built the scientific foundation of the modern world we inherited and enjoy today actually did believe God created the world and all that was in it. It didn't seem to hamper them in their exploration of science.


Indeed. Those people seem to have been able to separate their beliefs from their results, to keep an open mind, and to accomplish valid science as a result. In so doing, they even discovered evolution, both stellar and biological. And many people, religious and otherwise, continue to contribute to that body of scientific knowledge today.

Luckily, the persuit of science does not require that anyone hold a particular belief system (or a belief system at all). It only requires that theories be limited to naturalistic explanations (part of the definition of science).


The scientists who built the foundation of our modern scientific world did not need to compartmentalize their views on science from their belief in God as the creator of the world and all that is in it. In your exclusive view, Ros, you part company with the ones on whose work your world was built. They did not consider one as 'unscientific' for believing that God is the creator of all.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 06:54 pm
The secular reliance on the god of Chance is unavoidable in their explanations of the physical world in which we live.

You have your choice:

A) The universe was generated by Chance. A vast explosion threw huge amounts of matter into chaos. This matter arranged itself neatly by Chance into the functioning systems that we see.

(Where this matter and energy originally came from is something that they'd often rather not discuss.)

B) The universe was not generated by Chance.

---------------------

Again, the secular reliance on the god of Chance is unavoidable in their explanations of the origin of life.

You have your choice:

A) Life was generated by Chance. Molecules collided and this matter arranged itself neatly by Chance into functioning living systems.

(The lack of scientific proof of Spontaneous Generation and the lack of consistency with scientific law, along with the apparent suspension of the law of Entropy to accomplish this is something that they'd often rather not discuss.)

B) Life was not generated by Chance.

-----------------------

Once more, the secular reliance on the god of Chance is unavoidable in their explanations of the rise and development of complex life forms.

You have your choice:

A) Complex life forms were generated by Chance. Mutations (basically lucky accidents) gave some living organisms a distinct advantage over others. Successful minor modifications, instead of establishing a beneficial equilibrium, continued to occur in the very same line of descent, compounding and eventually by Chance became wholesale rearrangements of the organism's anatomy.

(That mutations are almost always either harmful or neutral in their effect, not beneficial, along with the uselessness of even some beneficial mutations without other beneficial mutations accompanying them is something that they'd often rather not discuss.)

B) Complex life forms were not generated by Chance.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 08:21 pm
rl, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the works of Poincaré, Lorenz, and Prigogine (of the three the latest, and who's general works are written in the most engaging, accessible, lay-freindly manner - the first two likely will appeal only to those with a well-founded academic/scientific background, ie: lotsa higher math)

Chaos, chance, and random are not equivalent terms. Conflating the embodied concepts and/or using the words interchangeably amounts to demonstration of a basic error of understanding. On that alone your construct fails. Apart from that, chance plays no part either in the workings of the universe or the study of science.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 08:25 pm
"real life" need only demonstrate, to the same standard of "observable" proof that he demands of others, that the universe and all which is in it is created. "real life" need only provide observable evidence of the existence of a creator--and the entire debate is resolved.

That's all he need do . . . just ante up, with cash . . .
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 08:36 pm
Setanta wrote:
"real life" need only demonstrate, to the same standard of "observable" proof that he demands of others, that the universe and all which is in it is created. "real life" need only provide observable evidence of the existence of a creator--and the entire debate is resolved.

That's all he need do . . . just ante up, with cash . . .


I do not require observable proof from the evolutionist.

However , if an evolutionist is so foolish as to make the claim to have observable proof of evolution, I think it is fair to ask to see it.

My consistent position has been that neither creation nor evolution has been observed. Both rely largely on circumstantial evidence and inference.

I think it incumbent upon each to be upfront about that.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 08:38 pm
What circumstantial evidence do you allege exists for creation?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 08:54 pm
With sufficient circumstantial evidence, particularly broadly cross-corroborating, independently derived, multiply observed, readilly duplicable circumstantial evidence, absent the existence of counter evidence of any type, one reasonably may assign a very high probability to the conclusion implied by the circumstantial evidence.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 09:49 pm
breathe, timber....
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 09:53 pm
timberlandko wrote:
With sufficient circumstantial evidence, particularly broadly cross-corroborating, independently derived, multiply observed, readilly duplicable circumstantial evidence, absent the existence of counter evidence of any type, one reasonably may assign a very high probability to the conclusion implied by the circumstantial evidence.
That's just the point, isn't it Timber? Circumstantial evidence is open to a variety of interpretations.

You may interpret 'all' evidence you see to support evolution, however others may interpret 'all' evidence they see (and it all being the very same evidence, since the evidence itself -- i.e. all the earth's attributes, the existence of every creature and it characteristics, do not 'belong' to either group) to support ID/creation.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 09:55 pm
Then it should be relatively simple for you to produce an unassailable statement of the circumstantial evidence for creation. You gonna talk all night, or are ya gonna ante?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 10:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
Then it should be relatively simple for you to produce an unassailable statement of the circumstantial evidence for creation. You gonna talk all night, or are ya gonna ante?
I refer you back to my post concerning the lack of evidence for eternally pre-existent matter/energy, violation of the law of Entropy, Spontaneous Generation, the harmful nature of most mutations, irreducible complexity, etc.

These are just a few of the barriers to interpreting the evidence in favor of the Trinity of the God of Chance --Big Bang / Abiogenesis / Evolution.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 10:14 pm
Nonsense, rl - the weight of the available evidence, circumstantial or not, forces but one conclusion - abnd that conclusion is in no way congruent with the entirely groundless proposition you forward.

You, and anyone else, is welcome to have and keep your faith. When, as in the manner you have been practicing, you begin to proseltyze and to substitute that faith for science and reason at the expense of both, your faith becomes no longer a private matter but a public laughingstock. I know you don't believe it, but you and your co-conspirators are constructing the gallows and weaving the rope by which you will hang your own proposition. I almost wish you folks success in the lower courts - such would hasten the day of your proposition's ultimate reckoning and final dispatch. I'm reminded of a line from the movie Forrest Gump, and it ain't the one about chocolates. Do as you see fit.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 10:18 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Nonsense, rl - the weight of the available evidence, circumstantial or not, forces but one conclusion - abnd that conclusion is in no way congruent with the entirely groundless proposition you forward.

You, and anyone else, is welcome to have and keep your faith. When, as in the manner you have been practicing, you begin to proseltyze and to substitute that faith for science and reason at the expense of both, your faith becomes no longer a private matter but a public laughingstock. I know you don't believe it, but you and your co-conspirators are constructing the gallows and weaving the rope by which you will hang your own proposition. I almost wish you folks success in the lower courts - such would hasten the day of your proposition's ultimate reckoning and final dispatch. I'm reminded of a line from the movie Forrest Gump, and it ain't the one about chocolates. Do as you see fit.
As I mentioned earlier, the decision of a court or a legislature to allow or disallow dissent in a public schoolroom in regard to the issue of origins, will in no way establish the veracity of the argument of either side. It will be a political decision, it will not alter scientific law.

To put it simpler, (the court or a congress) sayin' it's so won't make it so.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 11:06 pm
Beside the point, rl - what ultimately will be demonstrated, decided, and legislated is that Creation/ID is not legitimate science and has no place in any such curriculum. Social Studies, mebbe. Creative Writing night be a better fit. But whatever, the concept is not Circe of any description, its proponents are either dupes or frauds and charlatans, and that is what will be demonstrated and decided - largely on the basis of the patently absurd defense of the proposition offered by those dupes, frauds and charlatans.


Oh, BTW, to take just one of your purported "Obstacles" - "Irreducible Complexity" is a joke, the concept as applied in the Creationist/ID proposition is dismissed by the vast preponderance of the legitimate scientific and academic communities. Your revered Behe himself, who brought the term to the Creationist/ID camp, acknowledges that simply because scientists cannot currently see how an "irreducibly complex" organism could evolve, it does not prove that there is no possible way for it to have occurred. "Irreducibkle Complexity" proceeds from an illicit premise; it is an Argumentum ad Ignorantem fallacy, augmented with a Bifurcation, or False Dilema, Fallacy. It has no substance, it is invalid from its outset.

Aside from being forensically unsound, the Behe argument easily may be demolished through scientific means. Here, for example, is a peer-reviewed, accepted, and published paper which does just that, and with specific reference to Behe. The paper's abstract:

Quote:
Redundant Complexity:A Critical Analysis of Intelligent Design in Biochemistry.
Niall Shanks
Department of Philosophy
Department of Biological Sciences
East Tennessee State University
Johnson City, TN 37614 USA

Karl H. Joplin
Department of Biological Sciences
East Tennessee State University
Johnson City, TN 37614 USA


Published in PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE, 66 (June 1999): 268-298).
Abstract.

Biological systems exhibit complexity at all levels of organization. It has recently been argued by Michael Behe that at the biochemical level a type of complexity exists -- irreducible complexity -- that cannot possibly have arisen as the result of natural, evolutionary processes, and must instead be the product of (supernatural) intelligent design. Recent work on self-organizing chemical reactions calls into question Behe's analysis of the origins of biochemical complexity. His central interpretative metaphor for biochemical complexity, that of the well-designed mousetrap that ceases to function if critical parts are absent, is undermined by the observation that typical biochemical systems exhibit considerable redundancy and overlap of function. Real biochemical systems, we argue, manifest redundant complexity - a characteristic result of evolutionary processes. (We would like to thank George Gale for helpful comments, as well as the anonymous referees for Philosophy of Science.)


Where Creationists/IDers sense a hole - an unanswered question - in science, they seek to plug that hole by stuffing it full with the amorphous, undefined, one-size-more-or-less-fits-all sponge which is the The Creator/Designer concept. Where science senses a hole, it undertakes to look for the materials which comprise the puzzle pieces that may be assembled only in precisely the manner required to fit the hole, no gap, nothing left outside. And even then, science always is open to and looking for a piece which might fit even better. It takes time and effort to find and assemble the pieces, but then, that's what science is about - right answers, not easy, emotionally satisfying answers.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Nov, 2005 12:08 am
timberlandko wrote:
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
Nonsense, rl - the weight of the available evidence, circumstantial or not, forces but one conclusion - abnd that conclusion is in no way congruent with the entirely groundless proposition you forward.

You, and anyone else, is welcome to have and keep your faith. When, as in the manner you have been practicing, you begin to proseltyze and to substitute that faith for science and reason at the expense of both, your faith becomes no longer a private matter but a public laughingstock. I know you don't believe it, but you and your co-conspirators are constructing the gallows and weaving the rope by which you will hang your own proposition. I almost wish you folks success in the lower courts - such would hasten the day of your proposition's ultimate reckoning and final dispatch. I'm reminded of a line from the movie Forrest Gump, and it ain't the one about chocolates. Do as you see fit.
As I mentioned earlier, the decision of a court or a legislature to allow or disallow dissent in a public schoolroom in regard to the issue of origins, will in no way establish the veracity of the argument of either side. It will be a political decision, it will not alter scientific law.

To put it simpler, (the court or a congress) sayin' it's so won't make it so.


Beside the point, rl - what ultimately will be demonstrated, decided, and legislated is that Creation/ID is not legitimate science and has no place in any such curriculum.


It's precisely the point.

Just as the Pope's condemnation of Galileo had no bearing on the veracity of his ideas, so the decision of any court or congress will have no bearing on the veracity of either evolution or ID/creation. These ideas will be true or false on their own merits, no matter what a political group or judicial panel have to say about them.

You would certainly agree that the Kansas School Board's support for ID doesn't make it true, wouldn't you? If the Board reversed itself, would that make evolution true?

The same is so in the Dover case and anywhere or anytime this issue is to be dealt with politically, which it will be often.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Nov, 2005 12:18 am
While I have no doubt the agenda of the Creationist/ID crowd is to burden the courts and election booths with their claptrap, I expect their days of being taken seriously enough to get onto ballots and dockets is comming to an end - soon.

Sooner would be better, but Liberty and Justice for All being what it is, we gotta let Due Process play out, even if the outcome is inevitable.
0 Replies
 
 

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