cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 11:01 am
parados, Excellent point-by-point challenges, but bili is incapable of "straight talk" or "defending his own opinions." What have we got? It sure isn't a "discussion" on the topic of evolution. It's more of a discussion on semantics and religion.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 11:35 am
Rosborne wrote
Quote:
I have read it. It's just a story. Get a grip Bill.

I've read different theories about/on evolution. seems these are stories also. As far as evolution being a religion, 2 Cents Where were the scientists sitting and watching when the big bang happened? Seems to me to believe that:1. the big bang happened then 2. all this matter (what was it made of?) went flying through space (where did the space come from?) then 3. started to collect/congeal/adhere to itself and formed planets then 4. one of these cosmic islands happened to be in the right place at the right time (how was time started?) and 5. ALL the amino acids happened to be in the right place at the right time then 6. something happened (not sure what it was a lightning bolt or whatever) to get all these amino acids to form a living cell (whew). This all took millions and billions of years Question I haven't seen the notes the scientists took as this was all taking place, any way we are told that from this cell all life formed (sounds kinda religious to me) and this cell divided and changed/evolved over a few more million years and turned into an inverterbrate then swam around for a while and finally for whatever reason decided to get out of the water and see what was happening on land and developed a skeletal structure, legs, arms and at the same time HAD TO HAVE a male and female to procreate etc. and over the next several million years divirisfied into all the different animals (What about the plants? Where did the plants come from? No one has even mentioned how the plants evolved however I may have missed that post. It had to be this same cell right?) Then we finally "evolved into man. Question Sounds like you have to have a lot of faith to believe this Religion yes/no?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 11:53 am
Jackofalltrades wrote:
Rosborne wrote
Quote:
I have read it. It's just a story. Get a grip Bill.

I've read different theories about/on evolution. seems these are stories also.


The Theory of Evolution is derived from evidence, lots and lots of rock solid evidence and logical deduction. It fits exactly with what science requires for a valid theory. The theory of evolution resulted from observation and deduction, just like all other scientific theories did.

The Bible is a story which is not derrived from evidence. As a matter of fact, many of the events in the Bible are in direct conflict with the evidence we find in the natural world. The only way the Bible can possibly be correct is if there's a magical deiity in the world (God). But that's an assumption. Science makes a different assumption; that there is no deity involved. Both positions are based on assumption. Each view is valid within its own assumed boundaries.

If you want to believe something, go ahead and believe it. But don't try to step into the box of science and try to use assumptions from outside that box to address scientific issues. Logic and reasoning don't work that way.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 01:47 pm
rosborne wrote:
Quote:
Science makes a different assumption; that there is no deity involved.

I don't think science makes an assumption of a diety one way or the other. Science assumes that the laws of the physical universe don't change. That doesn't deny a diety exists. It only assumes that if there is a diety he acts the same today as he did a million years ago.

Jack wrote:
Quote:
I've read different theories about/on evolution. seems these are stories also. As far as evolution being a religion, Where were the scientists sitting and watching when the big bang happened?

That's the point of science Jack. When the theory no longer matches the observed science then it is changed. If you don't like the "story", you are free to find facts to dispute it. What does the big bang theory have to do with evolution? Or is it only an atttempt to hide that you can't argue facts about evolution itself?

Science asks a question then tries to find answers for that question. I don't see you trying to answer any questions.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 02:09 pm
Quote:
Question Sounds like you have to have a lot of faith to believe this Religion yes/no?


Lets examine this simple thing with some simple science.Feel free to dispute anything I list as fact that you disagree with.

Fact - man exists today (he is observable.)
Fact - a fossil record exists from previous times (also observable)
Fact - man doesn't exist in the early fossil record.
Fact - DNA is the basic building block of life (all living creatures have DNA which makes them unique species)
Fact - We have observed creatures become new species unable to mate with other descendents of the same ancestors. (fruit flies)
Fact - DNA can change or mutate during propogation from parent to child.
Fact - some mutations are not viable but others are.
Fact - a single lab is not even 1/billionth of the size of the entire earth's volume that is inhabitable by life.
Fact - the lab animals used in evolution experiments are less than 1/billionth of the number of those animals in the world.


Proposition - Based on these facts (and thousands more) it is likely that man evolved from early creatures.


Based on the 9 facts I listed above find a theory that is more likely than evolution. The theory should account for every one of my listed facts.

Is my proposition faith based? or a logical assumption based on the facts I know? This is a simple exercise in logic. Jack? Bili? Anon? any of you willing to step up to the plate and actually discuss these facts?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 02:19 pm
parados, They call that "adaptation."
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 02:30 pm
CI
Their definition of adaption doesn't explain the first three facts on my list.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 02:31 pm
I know; their conclusions are semantically wrong as well as their understanding of evolution.
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:17 pm
Quote:

I've read different theories about/on evolution. seems these are stories also. As far as evolution being a religion, 2 cents Where were the scientists sitting and watching when the big bang happened? Seems to me to believe that:1. the big bang happened then 2. all this matter (what was it made of?) went flying through space (where did the space come from?) then 3. started to collect/congeal/adhere to itself and formed planets then 4. one of these cosmic islands happened to be in the right place at the right time (how was time started?) and 5. ALL the amino acids happened to be in the right place at the right time then 6. something happened (not sure what it was a lightning bolt or whatever) to get all these amino acids to form a living cell (whew). This all took millions and billions of years Question I haven't seen the notes the scientists took as this was all taking place, any way we are told that from this cell all life formed (sounds kinda religious to me) and this cell divided and changed/evolved over a few more million years and turned into an inverterbrate then swam around for a while and finally for whatever reason decided to get out of the water and see what was happening on land and developed a skeletal structure, legs, arms and at the same time HAD TO HAVE a male and female to procreate etc. and over the next several million years divirisfied into all the different animals (What about the plants? Where did the plants come from? No one has even mentioned how the plants evolved however I may have missed that post. It had to be this same cell right?) Then we finally "evolved into man. Question Sounds like you have to have a lot of faith to believe this Religion yes/no?



Here's the difference. Those ideas are maleable; theyre just ideas. They can change. So far however we have not (doesnt mean we will not) found any theories that explain these events better.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:23 pm
Rosborne wrote
Quote:
The Bible is a story which is not derrived from evidence.
First I would like to know if you have read the Bible? Have you seen a jury trial? The one thing that relies on any verdict is the testimony of witnesses. Now as far as before creation there are no witnesses However there have been witnesses throughout time which have been recorded in history as to the events of history. Who has recorded the different Egyptian Dynasties or the Roman dynasties. There were witnesses to the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus (Mathew, Mark, Luke(the Physician) and John to name a few). Even the history of mankind is seperated into B.C. and A.D. (unfortunately this is even being changed for "political correctness). Sorry Rosborne, but as I and millions of other Christians (and non-Christians) see it the stories in the bible were recorded just like the stories of Julius Ceaser and other great events in history. Just like before man was created there was no physical witness, concerning evolution there were no witnesses to this either. You believe that the fossil record speks of evolution However I believe that the fossil record speaks of Creation (which DOES HAVE REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE). I would like to show you the scientific evidence however this Creation vs. evolution ping-pong game is starting to get played out and anyhting I or Bili or any one else says one way or the other will get dissmissed as trivial nonsense. There is a lot more I would like to cover concerning how the accounts of the apostles differ and a bunch of other stuff but my pick-up truck just died so I need to go fix it...Bye
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:27 pm
Jack wrote:
Quote:
I would like to show you the scientific evidence


Please do. I have asked several times.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:32 pm
Creation vs evolution: Hebrews11:v1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen Question HMMMMMMMMMMMMM Very Happy
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:33 pm
Sounds like Rummy talking to that sargent.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:34 pm
Sounds like double-talk anyway - to most people. Any translatioin will do when nobody is able to refute any one of them.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:38 pm
Quote:
Creation vs evolution: Hebrews11:v1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen Question HMMMMMMMMMMMMM Very Happy


Is that supposed to be SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE like you promised?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:45 pm
parados, You expecting a miracle or some'tn. It ain't forthcoming - not now or later. All they know how to do is repeat that part of the bible that sounds like it supports their views of what the bible really means. Sad, ain't it?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 03:53 pm
You're all wrong...


It is not evolution or creation but evolution and creation.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 04:03 pm
Out of context
Just like you take the bible out of context, you have taken my quote out of context. I really don't feel like I need to show you the scientific evidence as you will poo poo it and say that the people who researched it are wrong just as I say evolution is wrong. This has become a moot point and I may post from time to time, but I will keep looking at the posts. You may say you have won the war, but the battle still rages until Christ's return when He says it is finished, then let's see who is right. If you are right then I die and that's it, but if what I believe in, the salvation in Jesus is right, then what will happen when YOU die. I think the X-Files said it right ...The truth is out there. Go ahead and rebut my comments, but don't take them out of context. As I said before this "spiritual Ping pong game" (yes, I feel it has become a spiritual thing) is getting played out. Have a nice eternity evolving into whatever Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 04:08 pm
I DIDN'T PROMISE ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE! Read my post again. My reference to Hebrews looks like it can apply to the evolutionary thinking also.
BTW is your "bible" the Origin of the Species written by the prophet Darwin? :wink:
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 04:11 pm
parados wrote:
rosborne wrote:
Quote:
Science makes a different assumption; that there is no deity involved.

I don't think science makes an assumption of a diety one way or the other.


I suppose you are correct. I try to make the same point over and over again so many times that I tend to try different phrases to get the point across, and sometimes my terminology becomes imprecise.

In this case, the point is that science is based on Naturalism, which precludes the use of the supernatural in any explanation or theory.

Science itself is not a living thinking thing, so it can't "assume" anything.
0 Replies
 
 

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