farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 05:19 am
"CreaTIOnists have a theory about fossilization occurs rapidly". Obviously they dont know that science has already passed that point.
The ACT of fossilization does occur usually rapidly. Thats why fossils are always studied in context to see what the sediment is like (sandstorm, swollen river, The only slow fossilization usually occurs in very fine lacustrine or anoxic ocean sediments, where all fine details are preserved best.
Where the Creationists jump of the train is their insistance that these fossil are actually only a few thousand years old, when most of them, when correlated lie beneath sediment layers that are multi million years of age.
Its like the Creationist ARgument about the age of the Grand Canyon. They say its a feature that could have been channeled in a few months. In reality, even if that ridiculous claim were true (which its not), then what about the ages of the original strata that the flood stream carved through. Did they form at the same time they were being carved? hardly not.
ALl cReationist and Intel Design thoughts can be dismissed quite easily because the people that went through the original science , went through a vetting period in which other scientists, trained and experienced,pored through the data with an eye to extreme detail and inconsistency. I dont think a bunch of weekend boobs like Safarti, Dembski and their crowd of science wannabees can come up with anything substantive.
I just wish , like Wolf Odonnel said, why dont the Creationists take up some of their own research to try to find some data that supports their worldview.I know that theres a series of expeditions that have been planned to ascend Mt Arrarat in order to find a hunk of the "Ark". What a grand waste of time and money.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 05:24 am
real life
Quote:
(Boy, would Captain Kirk ever kick their rears for violating the Prime Directive !! )


Yes but, Captain Kirk is also a made-up character who now hocks cheap plane tickets and hotel rooms. Your thinking is muddy real-life. I know when youve backed into a corner you try humor and diversion.


What do you consider yourself, a Creation believer or a student of Intelligent Design? Im just curious.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 05:40 am
I thought it was funny. Shocked
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 07:01 am
xingu wrote:
It's not called faith; it's called science, something you know very little about.

What you believe in is based on an old tribal creation story, not science.


Not only is it based on a tribal story, it's not even an original story, the Hewbrews borrowed it from other people. The silliness of the concept of "revealed truth" just deepens when one studies the origin of biblical texts and the sad truth of the pathetic rube character of the Hebrew tribes.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 03:33 pm
During the humor break...

http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2005/08/21/l53567.gif
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 04:10 pm
I've never noticed that a Platypus' tail looks like a beaver's.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 07:09 pm
So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that evil woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb f*** and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.
― Frank Zappa
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 07:19 pm
Now, that is f--u--n--n--y! Thanks for my good laugh for today, xingu. Wink
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 09:02 pm
xingu wrote:
So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that evil woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb f*** and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.
? Frank Zappa


I've never been much of a defender of christianity, but I think Frank Z's interpretation is a bit cynical. To me, the story of the Apple is a very accurate metaphore for the evolution of humanity into a self aware form. Ignorance is bliss, and bliss is the Garden of Eden. We lost Eden because we became aware; we evolved. All this crap about talking snakes and women offering forbidden fruit is just cultural paranoia and politics cluttering up the simple story of how we evolved from animals to people.

The interesting part of the story is that we never really had any choice about eating the Apple, it was inevitible that we would learn the concept of good and evil and that we would leave our ignorance and our garden behind.

If we had the choice again, to stay like animals in our garden of ignorant bliss, or to choose knowledge and become human, even at the cost of our innocence, wouldn't most of us make the same choice again?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 10:33 pm
xingu wrote:
So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that evil woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb f*** and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.
― Frank Zappa


Yeah, Zappa. What an intellectual giant. Isn't he the guy that named his kids "Dweezil" and "Moon Unit" ?

Yep, keep quoting him Xing. Makes a great poster boy for your view. All of us need a lecture from him on being smart. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 10:42 pm
farmerman wrote:

The ACT of fossilization does occur usually rapidly. Thats why fossils are always studied in context to see what the sediment is like (sandstorm, swollen river, The only slow fossilization usually occurs in very fine lacustrine or anoxic ocean sediments, where all fine details are preserved best.
Where the Creationists jump of the train is their insistance that these fossil are actually only a few thousand years old, when most of them, when correlated lie beneath sediment layers that are multi million years of age.


Is the determination of the age of the sediment layer affected by what fossils are found therein?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 10:51 pm
Wilso wrote:
I would object to questioning evolution in the classroom if the motivation is the exposure of children to the riduculous monstrosity of creationism. The only way you nutcases have got any supporters is because of the indoctrination of the minds of children. Without early brainwashing you lot would be only be found in the psychiatric wards of hospitals where your deluded minds can run wild without hurting anyone else.


I see. So you would judge the appropriateness of what is presented in the classroom based not on what the actual class material SAID, but on your perception of what the MOTIVATIONS are.

Very good. Well it's nice to have a member of the Thought Police checking in with us now and again. As you can see, all is good here, officer.

You may return to your post.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 05:39 am
0 Replies
 
Paaskynen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 09:31 am
Conviction is a greater enemy of the truth than the lie
F. Nietsche

(and this does not only go for religious conviction; all conviction poses a threat to the cartesian doubt that is the foundation of the scientific approach)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 09:42 am
You had many interesting quotes; don't get me wrong. It's just that I wish to concentrate on only one:
xingu quoting Zappa wrote:
The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? O.K., it was the Tree of Knowledge. You eat this apple, you're going to be as smart as God. We can't have that.
If, by intellectualism, Zappa means learning and wisdom, he is wrong to equate it with the knowledge obtained in Eden.

The knowledge obtained in Eden is more closely represented by the arrogant and empty sophistries of priests, politicians and philosophers who ambidextrously apply their conclusions to selfish ends.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 11:44 am
real life says
Quote:
Is the determination of the age of the sediment layer affected by what fossils are found therein?


Only as half an equation. We never cross correlatewhen we are trying to establish age, that would be as stupid as finding a gap in the fossil record and then concluding that a god was responsiblefor a creatures creation.
Stratigraphic correlation is a complex subject that , may take some reading beyond AIG. Id reccomend a start with the old WAyne Pettyjohn books and then Blatt and Berry's text on Stratigraphic analyses. It may stoke your curiosity and cause you to rad further and actually go out into the field and look more closely.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 08:03 pm
xingu wrote:
Real life

Since you enjoyed Zappa so much I'll give you a few more.

The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? O.K., it was the Tree of Knowledge. You eat this apple, you're going to be as smart as God. We can't have that.
― Frank Zappa



Zappa quoting Satan. Typical.

The tree was not the tree of knowledge.

The tree was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The word "know" in the Old Testament in particular carried a variety of meanings. A few verses later it is referring to intimacy between Adam and Eve --- " and Adam knew Eve his wife and she conceived"

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is referring to contact with, acquaintance and experience with Evil as well as Good.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of this. Contact with Evil was foreign to them. God wanted it to remain so.

It is obvious that Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to partake, as indicated by Eve's response to the serpent. Also they were not ignorant bumpkins; Adam had named all the animals and had been given charge of the garden to care for it.

That Satan's statement ( and Zappa's ) is a lie is very obvious. Adam (and by extension Mankind ) did NOT become as smart as God by partaking of sin in eating the fruit. Although some folks believe that they are.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 08:34 pm
Tyically only responding to those questions which you can only give a theological answer to. It's too bad there isn't a tree of knowledge. You need to eat a few dozen.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 08:36 pm
HEY!

LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!!!

MONTANA!!!

Wilso is back from kayaking around New Zealand!!
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2005 10:36 pm
Wilso wrote:
Tyically only responding to those questions which you can only give a theological answer to. It's too bad there isn't a tree of knowledge. You need to eat a few dozen.



Zappa's pretension to intellectualism while mischaracterizing and misquoting the Bible is pathetic. But it is accepted at face value by the same star-struck generation that believes Ted Danson has any insight as to the viability of ocean life. The cult of Celebrity is a hypnotic seducer of modern man, who is hopelessly under it's spell.

Let us then turn to the learned. What does SJ Gould have to say? Gould says that the Genesis story fails as science for three reasons:

1) It can't have happened. Because miracles don't happen. Because I say so.

2) Creationists claim all fossils are the result of the Flood. (They don't claim this.)

3) Creationists take the arguments of evolutionists out of context and distort them. (Don't you dare look at #2 while he tells you this!! )

So Gould takes an assumption of anti-supernaturalism, plus two faults he professes to find in his opponents to make his case.

Whatever may or may not be the shortcomings of creationists or evolutionists doesn't change what did or did not actually happen when the world began.

The fact that Gould does not even attempt to cite one shred of actual scientific evidence here is very telling. He simply launches into an attack on his opponents, not the substance of their arguments.


------------------------------

The fact that the evolutionary "storyboard" has been populated with "ape-man" hoaxes time and again is also very telling. These picture book fairy tales serve to draw attention away from the huge problems evolutionists have postulating how life could spontaneously generate from non-living chemicals.

That, after all is THE problemn for evolution, is it not? One can try to categorize animals all day long and remark how they resemble each other , so one MUST have given rise to the other, etc.............

But how did a living entity make itself?

Living organisms, even the smallest and lowliest, are incredibly complex. To postulate that all of the incredibly complex chemicals (some of which can only be produced in the presence of others,etc) and constituent parts of even a one celled creature just jumped together at the same time and were immediately successful in living (for failure to be instantly successful would spell instant death and disintegration of these chemical wannabes by the chemical soup that they supposedly reside in, leaving Mother Evolution's next effort to start from scratch again) is a flight of fancy, but not much else.
0 Replies
 
 

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