Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 04:59 pm
So nice of you to say so C.I. It must be a really heady experience being so superior.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 05:35 pm
I never claimed to be "superior." I've often declared my mistakes on many forums on a2k. Even my tag line should be revealing of my weaknesses. Some people (like you) will continue to misconstrue what I say.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 05:37 pm
Fox, I don't "take the words" of my siblings - often. That doesn't make me superior by any stretch of the imagination - except yours.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 05:40 pm
BTW, all my siblings have always done better in school. I was always the "black sheep" that had more childhood problems (like fighting in school)and below average grades. You don't know of what you speak - concerning me.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 05:40 pm
BTW, all my siblings have always done better in school. I was always the "black sheep" that had more childhood problems (like fighting in school)and below average grades. You don't know of what you speak - concerning me.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 08:25 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
If the physical differences between men and women are so great as to be visible at 100 yards, then why would it be implausible that there are differences that are not visible, e.g. psychological?


Devil's Advocate:

I dare say that you could recognize the difference between a black man and a white man at at least 100 yards, but does that somehow reinforce the notion that there are invisible difference between the races?

But all you're noticing in that case is one difference - skin pigmentation - unlike what you're seeing in the case of gender. I am saying that if there are so many big, noticeable differences between the genders, one cannot reasonably claim that it is implausible that there are also differences below the surface.


There are "big, noticeable" differences between black men and white men at 100 yards, that are probably more striking than those between white men and white women at the same distance.

I shouldn't think so. The only difference visible at a distance between blacks and whites that I can think of is skin pigment. Minor facial differences are certainly not visible at a distance. On the other hand, there are numerous large, visible differences between men and women, including even the way they move. Any argument that it is not even plausible that there could be inherent psychological differences between the genders is silly.


I still think I could more easily mistake a white man for a white woman at 100 yards (a football field) than a black man for a white man, but I will take you point a step further and contend that it is silly (and ignorant, and mindless PC) to argue that it isn't plausible that there are inherent biological differences between men and women that extend to the manner in which either gender processes information.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 08:50 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
panzade wrote:
We know that females have an ability for math in grade school and they outperform boys in High School. The question is : why don't they keep up in college?


I don't have the stats on hand but I believe that women do keep up in college but just don't pursue higher degrees in math and sciences as frequently as men do. It's my opinion that looking at the time line would be an eye-opener. Most (but not all) graduate from college in their early twenties. If a woman wants any semblance of a career before she has children (if she wants them), she needs to start it then. Spending 4 more years in college is only a career move if she wants to stay in academia. I'd be interested to study women who have pursued careers in higher math and see whether 1) they had children at all or 2) their careers took an unconventional path. Obviously I have my own opinion about whether women are naturally good at math that is directly opposite to Foxfyre's. The danger I can see is that if we believe that women in general are unable to perform at the levels that men are in math and science then we drastically reduce the pool of talent from which to draw excellent minds that have much to contribute.


There is a difference between arguing that all women are incapable of performing at the same level of men as respects math, and arguing that men, in general, tend to perform at a higher level than women, in general.

A belief that men, generally, perform at a higher level than women in math, in and of itself, has no impact on the pool of talent from which to draw excellence. Excellence, by definition, exists outside the general.

The argument has been made that in the realm of math excellence, men are disproportionately represented, however this, in no way, reduces the pool of excellent minds. The pool is what it is. If there are more excellent male minds (in math) than female, no amount of arguing absolute equality of the sexes will change that fact.

I find it very hard to believe that institutions in search of true math excellence are going to allow gender bias to cause them to pass on an ideal candidate. If there is evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested in seeing it.

What this all boils down to is the notion of whether or not it is plausible that there exists an absolute equality of talent among the genders. On its face, the notion is absurd.

There are clear and obvious differences in physical capabilities that demonstrate that absolute equality of talent among the genders is a fallacy.

Since there is every reason to believe that the mind doesn't exist outside the influence of the body, it stands to reason that biological factors which shape the body, also shape the mind.

The absence of sameness doesn't imply the superiority of one over the other, but herein also lies a manifestation of the Feminist Paradox: Feminists have no problem in asserting the superiority of feminine attributes (nurturing, conflict resolution, relationship management etc), but bridle at any hint that the flow goes both ways. Come to think of it, paradox is too high falutin a word. Hypocrisy works better.

The balances that exist within the world are never so crass as to require absolute equality. The universe is far more subtle and elegant.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 08:57 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The idea that all behavioral differences between the sexes are environmental strikes me as very unlikely.


Yeah? Me too. But so does the idea that women aren't "wired" in such a way as to be able to comprehend complex mathematical concepts.


Why not?

That no one is arguing that all women are not wired to comprehend complex mathematical concepts is immaterial. Let's say they were. Why is it unlikely that a gender which is different from another at so basic a level as chromosones, might not be wired differently? Why is it unlikely that one gender which is continuously bathed in a wash of hormonal chemicals (responsible for any number of physical and behavioral characteristics) unique from the mixture astir in the other gender would not behave, cognitively, different?

Indeed, as Brandon has suggested, given the substantive physiological differences between men and women it defies logic that they would would be undiscernible in terms of behavior and skills.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 09:31 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, there are top notch athletes from all countries. But if it were truly a genetic predisposition toward athletic ability one might expect blacks to be over-represented in the circle of olympic champions.


Sports is an excellent example of why it is foolish to go overboard for the influences of either nature or nurture.

Look at boxing. There is no sport that draws a more definitive line between the haves and the have nots. That boxers are atheletically gifted is without question, but what gifted athlete, in his right mind, would chose boxing over any of the other more lucrative and less dehabilitating sports? Overwhelmingly, minorities populate the ranks of boxing. There is a reason that blacks and hispanics dominate boxing, but it is not genetic.

Boxing, long ago, gave up on the White Race -- or is it that the White Race gave up on boxing?

Where are today's boxers coming from if not from the black and hispanic communities? The answer is the Asian and Middle Eastern communitites. It is no coincidence too that there are plenty of Korean and Phillipino boxers but very few Japanese. Of course this has nothing to do with genetics or ethnicity, and everything to do with class.

There are any number of people that will argue that the dominance of Tiger Woods in a traditionally white sport such as golf proves that African-Americans are genetically superior to whites when it comes to athletics. Of course this completely ignores the fact that Woods is 50% Asian, and that his competitive spirit is a far greater attribute to him than his physical prowess.

When accounting for eugenics in explaining black dominance in sports the point that blacks have, historically, been denied the opportunity to excel in fields other than sports and entertainment is usually missed. Is it all that surprising that truly gifted blacks would gravitate towards the fields in which their role models excelled and in which they themselves had the best chance of excelling?

The world record holder, and Olympic gold medal winner in the 400 meter race is a white man. That he may have adopted the mannerisms and cultural filigree of Black America may, possibly, have something to do with his physical dominance, but I doubt it. For a fair period of time, a Russian white man was the Fastest Man on Earth (as defined by the Olympic 100m race results). Why does this mean nothing, when Tiger Woods dominance in gold mean so much?

Black Africans excel at long distance races (The Amazing Kenyans), but rarely show up in any other sport. I wonder why? They weren't bred by European Colonials? The answer has far more to do with their environment than their genes. With a fairly low level of protein in their diets they are hardly likely to develop extreme musculature - sprints, field events, wrestling, etc etc. Living at relatively high altitudes within a culture that encourages running as a means of transportation might just have had an effect.

There are far less (substantive) differences among the races than there are among the genders. Black men are every bit as different from White Women as are White Men.

(Brandon - To your point)
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 09:37 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The idea that all behavioral differences between the sexes are environmental strikes me as very unlikely.


Yeah? Me too. But so does the idea that women aren't "wired" in such a way as to be able to comprehend complex mathematical concepts.


Why not?

That no one is arguing that all women are not wired to comprehend complex mathematical concepts is immaterial. Let's say they were. Why is it unlikely that a gender which is different from another at so basic a level as chromosones, might not be wired differently? Why is it unlikely that one gender which is continuously bathed in a wash of hormonal chemicals (responsible for any number of physical and behavioral characteristics) unique from the mixture astir in the other gender would not behave, cognitively, different?

Indeed, as Brandon has suggested, given the substantive physiological differences between men and women it defies logic that they would would be undiscernible in terms of behavior and skills.


Both genders are awash in hormones. There's no reason to expect that the horomones of one would incapacitate them mathematically. The fact that there are women who can and do perform at the highest levels is proof that your hypothetical claim is not true for all women. If that were not that were not the case then I might find it easier to believe. My point, and I'll make it again, about the danger of subscribing to the theory that women just are not able to succeed at that level is that they will be discouraged from pursuing it early on. After all, what would be the point? Thus the pool of talent would be reduced.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 09:41 pm
Finn, agree with that last post of yours. Very well expressed.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:01 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
This theory of course was considered so politically incorrect by the PC police that Jimmy was run off television, out of sports, and was never heard from again.

Jimmy the Greek's theory wasn't politically incorrect, it was logically and scientifically incorrect. Despite years of relying on statistics, it seems that Jimmy was blissfully unaware of the basic statistical concept of "regression to the mean," which would have explained why, even if selective breeding had been consistently practiced with slaves (a dubious proposition in itself), the effects of that breeding would have been dissipated through successive generations.

Foxfyre wrote:
The thing is, Jimmy may very well have been right....

You're fooling yourself. He wasn't even a very good gambler.


Joe "Daley" From Chicago

Then "regression to the mean" should trump evolution.

Intent is not required for effective selective breeding.

Slaves were propagated through two general means:

1) Via the master
2) Via the black male who survived the rigors of slavery

It is, I will agree, dubious that American slave owners had a wide spread breeding strategy, however we can not ignore the unintended consequences of a slave owner's avarice and cruelty.

Unless we cannot agree that the weak slaves did not long survive, we have to acknowledge that those children born of slaves were, in the main, sired from the most vital of male slaves. This is as an intentional a method of selective breeding as evolution.

Generally speaking, there is a better chance that the progeny of the White Master did not have to undergo the hardships of the children of the "Buck Nigre, " and so there is every reason to expect that regresion to the mean will have its effect on this population, but there remains the imperative of natural selection...whether driven by human design or otherwise.

Nevertheless, the real question is why is it so utterly predicable that a iconic Liberal such as yourself would have a visceral reaction to the notion that human beings caught within an unnatural environment (slavery) might respond to unnatural forces in their short term development?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:02 pm
Or maybe it's possible that we are created equal but diferent? Looking past the anomalies that will always exist, is it possible that each gender, and even possibly each race/culture/ethnic group has its own unique inate intelligence, each somewhat different from the others, but all necessary for a complete whole?

Our daughter was brilliant in math; we pushed her toward the sciences but she opted for a PhD in sociology and has had an amazing career and a good life. Our son struggled with advanced mathematics but slogged through that to get his degree in engineering and also went on to a great career and a good life.

So why did she, good in math, choose a field that did not require so much of it? Why did he who struggled with the math choose a career that required tons of it? I don't know. But each made the choice that was right. And they both are now very very good at what they do.

I therefore have to believe in a possibility that it is less a matter of ability than it is a matter of wiring that makes one choice more comfortable for us than another. I have nothing other than reason and observation to base that on, howeer. I wish somebody competent and unhindered by preconceived notions would conduct a oood study on it.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:05 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Like the politically incorrect thesis by that Harvard professor who claimed that black's intellectual capacity was far below those of whites. What amazes me more is the fact that that professor is teaching anything at Harvard.


Actually, he's not teaching anything. He's the President of the University.

At some point, one is sure, there was a voice decrying the fact that the President of the University of Prague might suggest that the world revolved, not around the earth, but the sun.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:08 pm
I didn't think it was Summers who participated in that study on intelligence. Wasn't that somebody else?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:10 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Like the politically incorrect thesis by that Harvard professor who claimed that black's intellectual capacity was far below those of whites. What amazes me more is the fact that that professor is teaching anything at Harvard.


Actually, he's not teaching anything. He's the President of the University.

At some point, one is sure, there was a voice decrying the fact that the President of the University of Prague might suggest that the world revolved, not around the earth, but the sun.


I didn't think he said anything about blacks, I thought he said it about women? This is Summer we are talking about right?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:16 pm
Actually, Finns' response is a non sequitur. Those professors wrote that report while he was teaching, and comparing the earth's rotation around the sun has nothing to do with this subject.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:21 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The idea that all behavioral differences between the sexes are environmental strikes me as very unlikely.


Yeah? Me too. But so does the idea that women aren't "wired" in such a way as to be able to comprehend complex mathematical concepts.


Why not?

That no one is arguing that all women are not wired to comprehend complex mathematical concepts is immaterial. Let's say they were. Why is it unlikely that a gender which is different from another at so basic a level as chromosones, might not be wired differently? Why is it unlikely that one gender which is continuously bathed in a wash of hormonal chemicals (responsible for any number of physical and behavioral characteristics) unique from the mixture astir in the other gender would not behave, cognitively, different?

Indeed, as Brandon has suggested, given the substantive physiological differences between men and women it defies logic that they would would be undiscernible in terms of behavior and skills.


Both genders are awash in hormones. There's no reason to expect that the hormones of one would incapacitate them mathematically. The fact that there are women who can and do perform at the highest levels is proof that your hypothetical claim is not true for all women. If that were not that were not the case then I might find it easier to believe. My point, and I'll make it again, about the danger of subscribing to the theory that women just are not able to succeed at that level is that they will be discouraged from pursuing it early on. After all, what would be the point? Thus the pool of talent would be reduced.


(As you might expect) I beg to differ.

Given a basic understanding of the effect of endocrinological secretions, there is every reason to expect that hormones might influence the way in which an individual thinks. To the extent that one gender is awash in Hormone A and the other is awash in Hormone B, there is, again, every reason to believe that that the one will think and/or behave differently than the other.

I'm afraid that you are simply incorrect in the characterization of my hypothetical. I am perfectly happy with the notion that there are individual women who are capable of performing at or above the level of men when it comes to math. I do contend that, in general, men will will outperform women when it comes to math.

For a moment, let's assume that I am correct. Should we refrain from stating this truth because it might lead some women from pursuing mathematics? If a woman is capable and impassioned to pursue mathematics, she is hardly to be put off by some generalized position. If, on the other hand, all it takes is an authoritative voice to tell her she cannot excel to divert her from her passion, then she wa not meant for mathematics.

There is no shortage of authoritative nay sayers in this world. Gender is hardly their exclusive medium. It is a crutch to use gender as an excuse not to strive.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:24 pm
Baldimo wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Like the politically incorrect thesis by that Harvard professor who claimed that black's intellectual capacity was far below those of whites. What amazes me more is the fact that that professor is teaching anything at Harvard.


Actually, he's not teaching anything. He's the President of the University.

At some point, one is sure, there was a voice decrying the fact that the President of the University of Prague might suggest that the world revolved, not around the earth, but the sun.


I didn't think he said anything about blacks, I thought he said it about women? This is Summer we are talking about right?


Well, I stand corrected if at least two other posters (whom I respect) read CI's comment differently.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:26 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
From Business Week:
" Even in retrospect, it is difficult to know fully what contributed to the notoriety surrounding The Bell Curve. None of the book's major arguments were new to the educated public. Herrnstein, a Harvard psychology professor, and Murray, an American Enterprise Institute political scientist, argued that intelligence is best thought of as a single property distributed within the general population along a bell-shaped curve. <snip>"



He's not president of any university, Finn.
He's actually a dead guy now.

Quote:
Outside academia, Professor Herrnstein came to national attention for his work on intelligence in a famous Atlantic article in 1971. He pointed out that intelligence was substantially (though not completely) inherited, that success in life was correlated with intelligence, and that the more the environmental factors were equalized, the more social and economic success would become an inherited trait. In 1994, this does not sound so improbable; in 1971, the intellectual heyday of egalitarianism, it was heresy, and Professor Herrnstein paid a heavy price. It wasn't just that he was called a racist when he had not even written about race, nor that his clearly stated views were twisted out of all recognition in the journalists' retelling. He also discovered that colleagues could betray him and that an institution he adored could hold him at arm's length, not because he was wrong, but because they were afraid.



http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/bell-curve/murray-hstein-obit.html


http://goinside.com/98/3/postmod.html - a review


Quote:
Is there anyone left with access to a microphone, television camera, or printing press who has not unburdened himself of an opinion of The Bell Curve? The reason, of course, is its provocative discussion of inherently controversial subjects: intelligence, genetics, race, and the relationship of this trinity to success or failure in American society.


http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Summaries/V99I1P78-1.htm
0 Replies
 
 

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