The Trouble With Labels

snood:-

You must never have tackled Proust.If you want to see some obtuse verbiage of a very high order try that.

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spendius wrote:

snood:-

"Legal" is a label.It is another collective for that vast range of activities which the upper-classes have invented to provide for the eradication of disturbances to that way of life to which they are accustomed."Illegal" is another collective for that even vaster range of activities which we of the lower orders would engage in were it not for the carrots and sticks.Otherwise there would be no point to the categories.It would be silly to make laws about things we didn't wish to do I feel and it follows that the law books are an excellent guide to natural behaviour.

I smoke Golden Virginia.

You can be a joy to read, old chum.

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MG:-

Did you check the Spoonerisms on Trivia.You dashed off yesterday at the time I mentioned it and the gravediggers have been filling the hole in since.

I hope your Ma is okay.

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I've noticed some on A2K are quick to reply to an opposing point of view with a label thereby relieving them of the responsibility of forming their own opinion and having a rational discussion based on the facts of a particular issue. This dehumanizing process is necessary to feed the labeler's sense of being justified and to alleviate the feeling of guilt.

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RfromPwrites

Quote:

I've noticed some on A2K are quick to reply to an opposing point of view with a label thereby relieving them of the responsibility of forming their own opinion and having a rational discussion based on the facts of a particular issue. This dehumanizing process is necessary to feed the labeler's sense of being justified and to alleviate the feeling of guilt.

Well that's a bit more psychoanalytical than I like to get in these things, but I agree that immediatley applying labels has a chilling affect on constructive discussion. I appreciated Snood's acknowledgement that he is not guiltless in that phenomenon. My own halo is considerably tarnished as well.

I am on both the Rasmussen and Zogby lists to complete intermittent polls and at some point in every poll I am asked to state whether I consider myself "very conservative', 'conservative', 'moderate', 'liberal', or 'very liberal'. I always mark conservative will full knowledge that I am in fact a classic liberal; however, that definition is not widely recognized these days and only confuses people if I attempt to use it. I therefore use the more commonly understood label.

Like Lola I think labels can sometimes be useful to avoid having to invent the wheel every time we are discussing ideology. I prefer not to label people personally unless they wear their label proudly. Lola does and I admire her for that. Most conservatives don't mind being identified as conservative. I don't know how most liberals feel about being labeled a liberal.

It isn't the label that is the problem I think, but the assumptions some automatically place on the person wearing the label. As soon as personal insults start flying, constructive discussion will almost always stop and the exchange will become tit for tat or self defense. Characterizations based on erroneous assumptions are just as bad and are extremely annoying. And, once somebody advises you that they hold you in complete contempt, there isn't much incentive to have any kind of reasonable discussion at all.

There are a number of members on A2K who can avoid those traps and they are a pure pleasure to have discussions with. I would name the self-proclaimed liberals that I admire but I'm afraid I would inadvertently leave somebody important out.

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I must confess that I have less patience with the inevitable "Hey Gang, let's not label" thread than I do with the practice of labelling.

Labelling is a tribal practice and Man is a tribal being. You can run, but you can't hide from those pesky genes.

Considering that we are all faceless cyber avatars who are entirely free to play fast and loose with the substance of our identities, it seems a bit ludicrous to generate angst over characterizations. Who is going to sympathize with Foghorn Leghorn's (the cartoon personae, and not an A2K avatar) bemoaning that he is a victim of caricature?

Know thy limits and the limits of thy internet forum. It's fun to label, and when the fun runs out, one can usually engage in a serious discussion with a few other posters. To expect more is....a perfect example of Loony Liberal pie in the sky sentimentality.

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I just don't understand what labeling brings to a conversation. The only purpose it serves is to alienate. If that's the objective than it's an effective strategy but not if a serious debate is desired. I agree with Foxfyre that the assumptions that accompany the label is the problem, but that is inherent with a label. I just see it as a distasteful and unimpressive tactic employed by those unwilling to accept another's point of view.

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Quote:

Most conservatives don't mind being identified as conservative. I don't know how most liberals feel about being labeled a liberal.

Conservatives are identified, but liberals are labeled. hmmm

Despite massive efforts to turn the term liberal into a pejorative, we like it. It's a human term, full of liberty and a proud history in the USA. We are puzzled still by the finger pointing red-faced folks sneering "Liberal!" at us, like it were a bad thing. We put it down to a lack of education, couth or both.

Joe( a liberal, but not yet a classic.) Nation

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Foxy:-

What's the problem with getting psychoanalytical?
You might risk spending your whole life on the surface of things.When somebody buys you a present haven't they psychoanalysed you?If I want to keep in tight with Foxy I'll buy her a present.Now what would she like?A DIY toolbox or a new frock.But she already has a lot of frocks.But she likes a new one.Why does she like a new one and another new one.So she can display herself.Why does she want to display herself when she's married.No-that makes no sense.The tool box is the best bet surely.Or maybe a deep fat fryer.But then she would think I was hinting that she could make me some improved chips and I would be buying myself a present and then I wouldn't be in as tight with her as I would be if I bought her a new frock.I could buy her two presents.A new frock and a deep fat fryer.Then I could get improved chips and she could display herself cooking them.That sounds okay.But suppose she doesn't want to display herself cooking chips because it's no fun for her to display herself before a man she has already caught and prefers to have little harmless fantasies about displaying herself in front of the unexplored field.
Oh-now I see the problem.Better stay on the surface of things.

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Isn't "label" a label.It's a word used to identify those things which identify things and those things which have that function are many and varied.A jar of syrup is three things (to oversimpify a bit)-glass,syrup and the label.A conservative convention is similar.The building,the syrup and the notice at the front door:the label.In both cases the syrup consists of a range of components.The difference is that the real syrup isn't fighting itself like the conservatives would be at a convention.Thus the label on the jar of syrup is useful and the label on the seething mass of conservatives isn't.You might only be able to identify the individuals as conservative by the labels they have on.Especially when they are rolling around on the floor punching each other as they have been known to do.

Does that clarify anything.If it does let me know.

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Joe writes

Quote:

Conservatives are identified, but liberals are labeled. hmmm

Despite massive efforts to turn the term liberal into a pejorative, we like it. It's a human term, full of liberty and a proud history in the USA. We are puzzled still by the finger pointing red-faced folks sneering "Liberal!" at us, like it were a bad thing. We put it down to a lack of education, couth or both.

And herein is the problem. Rather than choosing to see 'label' as synonymous with 'identity', Joe seems to be saying that he interpreted the term 'liberal' as a perjorative against liberals. He cannot make a case for that when the synomym is put into context in my argument, however. This fully illustrates my point that the problem isn't with the label, but with the assumptions and/or characterizations that are placed on the label. The problem is intolerance.

I doubt many conservatives on this forum (or on any forum) feel sneering is a unilateral activity.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

I must confess that I have less patience with the inevitable "Hey Gang, let's not label" thread than I do with the practice of labelling.

Labelling is a tribal practice and Man is a tribal being. You can run, but you can't hide from those pesky genes.

Considering that we are all faceless cyber avatars who are entirely free to play fast and loose with the substance of our identities, it seems a bit ludicrous to generate angst over characterizations. Who is going to sympathize with Foghorn Leghorn's (the cartoon personae, and not an A2K avatar) bemoaning that he is a victim of caricature?

Know thy limits and the limits of thy internet forum. It's fun to label, and when the fun runs out, one can usually engage in a serious discussion with a few other posters. To expect more is....a perfect example of Loony Liberal pie in the sky sentimentality.

If I'd started this discussion with the kind of treacly teenaged sentiment ("hey gang, let's not label") that you appear to bemoan, I'd have to agree that would be unrealistic. But all I was saying was I think it's a better conversation if people don't so easily give in to their "tribal" herd instincts. After all, we're instinctively a whole LOT of things that we regularly make an effort to rise above. Or, I think some people do.

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spendius wrote:

Isn't "label" a label.It's a word used to identify those things which identify things and those things which have that function are many and varied.A jar of syrup is three things (to oversimpify a bit)-glass,syrup and the label.A conservative convention is similar.The building,the syrup and the notice at the front door:the label.In both cases the syrup consists of a range of components.The difference is that the real syrup isn't fighting itself like the conservatives would be at a convention.Thus the label on the jar of syrup is useful and the label on the seething mass of conservatives isn't.You might only be able to identify the individuals as conservative by the labels they have on.Especially when they are rolling around on the floor punching each other as they have been known to do.

Does that clarify anything.If it does let me know.

It would clarify a lot of things if you hit the spacebar between sentences.

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One of the major problems with labeling is that people are not really that easy to pigeonhole. I doubt that any of us is wholly "conservative" or completely "liberal." Lola's point that labeling sometimes has its uses is valid. But the danger in this practice is that, in labeling a person, you may well be subconciously imbuing that person with traits that they don't have. McGentrix said it well. He describes himself as a conservative who does not subscribe to the agenda of the Christian right. But isn't that what we assume when we call someone a neo-con? That he must be in the corner of the Bible-thumpers? And aren't all liberals in favor of strict gun control? (I'm not.)

I quite agree with Snood. Labeling prevents us from seeing the individual because of the label. There are actually so-called neo-cons on this site whose opinions I respect. I might disagree with those opinions, but I respect them -- and the persons who voiced them -- nonetheless. I myself am really neither a liberal nor a conservative. I always vote independent, never having labeled myself with a party affiliation. I tend to agree with most so-called "liberal" domestic issues, e.g. universal health care, civil rights, government responsibility toward those less fortunate than I, etc. etc. But I tend to be quite conservatibe when it comes to foreign issues, gun control matters and the superiority of the capitalistic system over other economic theories.

I think most of us fall somewhere in the middle. That's what the Aristotelian Golden Mean is all about.

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Well said Andrew, though I still think a label as an identity does keep us from having to use so many words to describe ourselves. When I describe myself as a conservative (with the modern definition attached) I am saying that I subscribe to more conservative points of view than I do to liberal points of view. It does not automatically follow, however, that I do not hold any views that would not fall on the liberal side nor that I have firm opinions about everything on either side. There are some issues I honestly don't have a conviction about yet and will need more information and thinking time to arrive at a point of conviction. Aren't most of us that way? It would be great if we could allow people that and not make automatic assumptions and characterizations or worse resort to the sneering insults because somebody isn't exactly like us.

The key to civil, productive discussion/debate is to start with WHAT values we hold and WHAT policies would best accomplish what our values dictate. The minute the discussion focuses on WHOSE values instead of WHAT values, we are in the label trap and usually never get out of it and on to something more productive.

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spendius wrote:

MG:-

Did you check the Spoonerisms on Trivia.You dashed off yesterday at the time I mentioned it and the gravediggers have been filling the hole in since.

I hope your Ma is okay.

Dig and fill, dig and fill...lives get used up in the oddest ways. I haven't peeked in on the spoonerisms and I will continue to resist the temptation because I really must tuggle my jime. Ma, dug and filled over these past ten years, is not doing very well at all. Thankyou for inquiring.

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snood wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
I must confess that I have less patience with the inevitable "Hey Gang, let's not label" thread than I do with the practice of labelling.

Labelling is a tribal practice and Man is a tribal being. You can run, but you can't hide from those pesky genes.

Considering that we are all faceless cyber avatars who are entirely free to play fast and loose with the substance of our identities, it seems a bit ludicrous to generate angst over characterizations. Who is going to sympathize with Foghorn Leghorn's (the cartoon personae, and not an A2K avatar) bemoaning that he is a victim of caricature?

Know thy limits and the limits of thy internet forum. It's fun to label, and when the fun runs out, one can usually engage in a serious discussion with a few other posters. To expect more is....a perfect example of Loony Liberal pie in the sky sentimentality.

If I'd started this discussion with the kind of treacly teenaged sentiment ("hey gang, let's not label") that you appear to bemoan, I'd have to agree that would be unrealistic. But all I was saying was I think it's a better conversation if people don't so easily give in to their "tribal" herd instincts. After all, we're instinctively a whole LOT of things that we regularly make an effort to rise above. Or, I think some people do.

And it would be a better dining experience if people didn't bring crying children to restaurants.

Mankind has been well served by a facility for pattern recognition. This facility in our early years led to labels like "Danger," or "Food." It now leads to labels like "Liberal," and "Conservative." Are the labels entirely accurate? Of course not, but neither were they when we were roaming the African savannahes. I would argue that they remain dependable if not infallible, but in any case, bemoaning them (whether in a cloying or spare manner) is not only pointless, it ignores their utility.

By the way, tribalism is not a herd mentality. We are not evolved from herding creatures, and clearly you are not a "Conservative," if you think we should rise above the instincts we have honed for hundreds of thousands of years.

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I don't know if I'm right wing or left wing.

I think trees are pretty but I like having paper and wood, so can't we just cut them down carefully?
I think peoples' sexlives are their own business as long as they're both happy.
I think nuclear power is clean and safe if you do it right.
I like peace but think it'll last longer with a strong military.
I think legalising drugs would be safer and make lots of profit.
I think social security is like oil for the cogs of society.

... Lots more that would take forever to go through.

I have a lot of opinions, but no matter which party I look at none of them fit all my opinions.

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Watchmakers wrote

Quote:

I don't know if I'm right wing or left wing.

I think trees are pretty but I like having paper and wood, so can't we just cut them down carefully?
I think peoples' sexlives are their own business as long as they're both happy.
I think nuclear power is clean and safe if you do it right.
I like peace but think it'll last longer with a strong military.
I think legalising drugs would be safer and make lots of profit.
I think social security is like oil for the cogs of society.

... Lots more that would take forever to go through.

I have a lot of opinions, but no matter which party I look at none of them fit all my opinions.

And with this you just described yourself as an average Republican, an old-fashioned Democrat, or an old-fashioned Libertarian. I can't think of another person in the world who agrees with my opinions on every issue. The best I can hope for in personal allies is to find people who mostly agree on what values are positive/beneficial and what values are not. There is then much latitude and wide diversity in how best to address programs and policies to further those values and, as already mentioned, what values the government has no business addressing at all.

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Foxfyre wrote:

you just described yourself as an average Republican, an old-fashioned Democrat, or an old-fashioned Libertarian.

Woot, I've got a label. Thanks :wink:

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The Trouble With Labels

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