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Understanding America and the Bush administration

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 07:37 am
JTT wrote:
McGentrix wrote:


Lew is obviously wrong.

of course that's merely MY opinion...


Obviously it IS only your opinion, McG. Lew didn't even write anything. Could it be that you failed even to read the articles?


by Paul Craig Roberts

by Scott McConnell


Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 03:25 am
Why am I not the least bit surprised?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 06:22 am
Without having read the book,I must say that understanding America and Americans is not something you can learn in a book.

Even understanding one part of our culture takes years of study,and I am not sure that any one person is able to explain our culture and our politics in a few pages,no matter how scholarly the book is.
The nuances in this culture are so varied.

BTW,I see mags is here now too.
Thats to bad.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 06:28 am
BM
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:18 am
JTT wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Why must it be acknowledged that the characteristic national feeling of Americans is "nationalistic," rather than "patriotic?"



I reiterate the question because these two links hardly answer it.

The Brownshirting of America
by Paul Craig Roberts

Bush's supporters demand lock-step consensus that Bush is right. They regard truthful reports that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction and was not involved in the September 11 attack on the US - truths now firmly established by the Bush administration's own reports - as treasonous America-bashing.

This excerpt is hyperbolic over generalization and there is nothing contained within the entire article that offers evidence, on even a broad basis, that the contention is true.

Characterizing "Bush Supporters," on the basis of a few nasty letters is ridiculous.

In any case "brown shirts" are, by no means, synonymous with "nationalists" despite what a certain Liberal worldview would suggest.

This is the same world view that identifies religion (just as it does with nationalism) as an intrinsically flawed and perilous premise around which to organize.

And...even if Bush supporters and/or nationalists were brown shirts (which they most obviously are not) it would not support the claims that we must acknowledge that "the characteristic national feeling of Americans is "nationalistic," rather than "patriotic."
The subject of this article is food for an entirely different debate, but it, in no way, supports the contention that current American national sentiment is "nationalistic" rather than "patriotic."

And the fact that both articles were published in The American Conservative is entirely meaningless on all counts other than one which might suggest that all conservatives are of a like mind. They do offer proof that this is not the case.

+++++++++++++++++++

Both articles were originally published in The American Conservative.
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:34 am
mysteryman wrote:
Without having read the book,I must say that understanding America and Americans is not something you can learn in a book.

Even understanding one part of our culture takes years of study,and I am not sure that any one person is able to explain our culture and our politics in a few pages,no matter how scholarly the book is.
The nuances in this culture are so varied.

BTW,I see mags is here now too.
Thats to bad.


It's great seeing Maggie at the forum! Refreshing opinions - real!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:40 am
Fringe opinions--wrong!
0 Replies
 
physgrad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 08:32 pm
hi i'm new so if I miss something let me know.
Anyways, more pertinent to the discussion. I'm not an american, but I believe that america has the right to protect itself and express its patriotism if it so chooses. Expressing patriotic feelings is not the sole right of self proclaimed victims fighting against what they believe to bewestern imperialism. America is, in my opinion, the most responsible super power the world has seen in a long time. Being in that position makes foreign policy a hard sell for America, in most cases its criticized for acting as the worlds leader, while inaction prompts criticism as well.
The second world war was preceded by appeasement, which amounted to the strongest countries in the world ignoring the aggressive actions of a certain foreign dictator. One would hope that the world would have learnt from its mistake. It seems america learnt.
In my opinion, America stands for democracy, equality and freedom. I'm not saying that america has a monopoly on these concepts, just that these are the values that it is currently trying to promote, and that in my mind is a good thing. The excerpts from the book posted were well written and interesting, but is it also not correct to appluad a country which not just allows a dissenting opinion, but fights for the right to have it. Not just that, in this case, America is fighting for the right of other countries to dissent and this act is laudable. I believe that the way to fight terrorism is freedom and if someone interprets that to mean the American version of freedom, then that is still not in my opinion a bad thing.

physgrad

PS: i'm new to suggestions are welcome.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 09:52 pm
HOORAY!!!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 09:55 pm
physgrad, It's good to hear positive things from anybody about America. You are a rare breed out there in webland who dares to say something good about our country. Thank you - even though I disagree with the policies of this current administration.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 10:59 pm
Hey, Magginkat, welcome to able2know.com. I'm the one formerly know as mptwain.

physgrad wrote:
The excerpts from the book posted were well written and interesting, but is it also not correct to appluad a country which not just allows a dissenting opinion, but fights for the right to have it. Not just that, in this case, America is fighting for the right of other countries to dissent and this act is laudable. I believe that the way to fight terrorism is freedom and if someone interprets that to mean the American version of freedom, then that is still not in my opinion a bad thing.


Problem is, if you were to pay enough attention to the American media, you'd think those who dissent are enemies of the state and are committing an act of treason. That is, according to the neocons and the Republican run government we currently have in place.

Where do you hail from? I'm curious as to what exactly you see when describing an American version of freedom. Would that include unfettered capitalism, corporate special interests influencing our politicians and their decisions, character destruction during election time, voter fraud, administrative secrecy, censorship, and so much more which (IMO) doesn't characterize a true, "free" country. As we have an administration hellbent on infusing Christian conservative values into government, where is the freedom FROM this?

I believe it is so much more complicated than you could possibly imagine...
0 Replies
 
physgrad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 02:37 am
[
Quote:

Where do you hail from? I'm curious as to what exactly you see when describing an American version of freedom.


I'm from delhi, India, though currently studying in massachusetts.

When I said American version of freedom, I included freedom of expression, freedom of religion, the right to vote, equality before the law, and a whole slew of other rights and freedoms, which while not unique to America, are intrinsic to its nature. I hail from another democracy with its own set of problems, which are not really pertinent to this discussion.

However, as regards to character defamation during elections, their will always be people who try to put down their opponents in what is essentially a popularity contest. Their are however, I believe, a lot more people out there who are able to see through slander and decide on issues which matter to them. And again while the rhetoric during elections isn't pleasant to hear, politicians too have the right to freedom of expression.

Unfettered Capitalism: it is my opinion that capitalism is one of the few economic models which can sustain a democracy. Communism requires people to act against their own self interest and therefor needs a dictatorship to enforce it. Capitalism may not be a bed of roses, but it means that people work for money and better work means more money. America, seems to me to be a merit oriented society and there is nothing wrong with that.

Voter fraud, is something i'm not really sure I believe happens on a large scale. The system comes with its own checks and balances, and the american media seems to be doing a good job. However, this is not something I've seriously considered, so if there are any hard facts I've overlooked, let me know.

About the media reaction to dissent within America, it seems to cover both sides of the spectrum. When a professor in Colorado made what I considered very insensitive comments, Fox news brought it up. Similarly, when someone on the extreme right makes a mistake, certain papers, news channels and almost all the comedians on the TV cant seem to stop talking about it. What I fail to understand is why when a liberal is asked to defend a stance he/she's taken, they seem to consider it an infringement on their right to expression rather than as an invitation to debate that stance, aka the colorado professor. Asking a person to explain a stance isn't a threat or an accusation of treason.

Conservative christian values: this is I believe a comment on religion in politics. Religion for most people is a very private belief, but it does tell people how they should live their life, while politics sets the framework for that life. It is hard, if at all possible, to untie these two. Collective social morality depends upon individual morality, which in turn is shaped in large parts by religion. The policy of a democratic state is shaped by collective morality, thus a finite overlap between church and state seems to be a logical conclusion. The american constitution and independent judiciary are the required checks to ensure the rights of the minority and so far they seem to be equal to the task.

This being said, I believe you are right in saying that the answer to your questions is more complicated than the general outline I have presented here. But doesnt't that just mean that extreme positions and the inability to admit error are what hinder true answers?
0 Replies
 
theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:07 am
physgrad wrote:
hi i'm new


Welcome.

Quote:
so if I miss something let me know.


You're doing great so far.

Quote:
I believe that america has the right to protect itself


Perhaps, though like so many things it certainly has limits. For example, shark attacks. Sharks rarely kill humans but it does happen. Every time that it does there are always people suggesting that we exterminate the entire species.

I think people have the "right" to defend themselves with reasonable means, yet lashing out at all those who might harm you in the future goes a bit too far and can make you less safe, rather than more.

Quote:
and express its patriotism if it so chooses.


<shrug> the right of free speech means that they can say what they wish and then I can make fun of them for doing so. They can inflate their ego as much as they wish, there will always be people around ready to prick it and bring them back to reality.

Quote:
America is, in my opinion, the most responsible super power the world has seen in a long time.


Perhaps, yet it's a sad reality that that's really not saying much. I'm sure you're more familiar with the abuses of english colonial power than I am, back when they were the super-power.

Such abuses could be traced back to every super power since the Akkadian empire (the first known empire on the Earth) and probably before.

Quote:
Being in that position makes foreign policy a hard sell for America, in most cases its criticized for acting as the worlds leader, while inaction prompts criticism as well.


Perhaps people wouldn't object to them being the "world's leader" if they did a better job of it. I know I wouldn't, I adore the idea of global government.

Quote:
The second world war was preceded by appeasement, which amounted to the strongest countries in the world ignoring the aggressive actions of a certain foreign dictator.


<tick> There's the Hitler reference, every debate needs one, so I've just marked that off on the checklist.

Quote:
One would hope that the world would have learnt from its mistake.


One would hope that the world is intelligent enough to reason that the political situation of 1930s post-depression Europe is significantly different from 21st century middle-eastern politics and thus treat each based upon its own particular traits.

Quote:
In my opinion, America stands for democracy, equality and freedom.


Well, that's what they write on the postcards. Just remember not everything is as it describes itself. The thing you should realise is that America is about AMERICAN democracy, equality and freedom. Their policies on the rest of the world however tend toward the unilateral, elitist and restrictive.

Their respect for democracy certainly doesn't extend to world democratic processes. Rather they make their own tyranical decisions based on their particular self-interested whims. They're welcome to do so, it's their country and military, why shouldn't they? However to pretend that such actions are "supporting democracy" is somewhat distorted,

Quote:
PS: i'm new to suggestions are welcome.


Physgrad. Welcome to A2K, wonderful post, good ideas. You don't need any help at all, you'll fit in right away.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 05:54 am
theantibuddha wrote:

One would hope that the world is intelligent enough to reason that the political situation of 1930s post-depression Europe is significantly different from 21st century middle-eastern politics and thus treat each based upon its own particular traits.


Really? The map looks the same ecxcept that Poland has moved west a bit and Czechoslovakia has split into two states. The Central European states are still trying to escape Russian domination, but finding the alternative is merely domination at the hands of the French and the Germans. The only real differences I see are that Germany is far less angry and resentful and that the populations of all the European states are now declining at increasing rates.

physgrad wrote:
In my opinion, America stands for democracy, equality and freedom.

It generally does. Moreover we have done far more to export those values and practices than has any other major power. We are certainly not perfect, and we have indulged our self-interest at the expense of others. However we have done far better in this area than has any other major power in the modern era.

theantibuddha wrote:

Well, that's what they write on the postcards. Just remember not everything is as it describes itself. The thing you should realise is that America is about AMERICAN democracy, equality and freedom. Their policies on the rest of the world however tend toward the unilateral, elitist and restrictive.

Their respect for democracy certainly doesn't extend to world democratic processes. Rather they make their own tyranical decisions based on their particular self-interested whims. They're welcome to do so, it's their country and military, why shouldn't they? However to pretend that such actions are "supporting democracy" is somewhat distorted,


antibuddha uses the pronoun "they", so I suppose he is not American. I have no idea what he might mean by the "unilateral, elitist. and restrictive" policies we have supposedly applied. Every nation reacts unilaterally when its vital interests are affected. Certainly the recent French intervention in the Ivory Coast, done solely to protect French investments in cocoa production, was unilateral. As for "elitist and restrictive" - those are just words, without much meaning in this context.

The idea of a "world democratic process" is an illusion given the average level of political development of states in the world. With Zimbabwe and Cuba sitting on the UN human rights commission, it is difficult for serious people to take that organization seriously. The UN is an occasionally useful international debating forum: it is not a world government.


Physgrad's insights are accurate and he/she should beware of the sophistry and babble shown here in response so far.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 06:03 am
georgeob1 wrote:
...the populations of all the European states are now declining at increasing rates.


I know that this is one of your favourite topics.

But since you here said "all European states", it's wrong.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 06:19 am
Well your'e right Walter. The Irish are still multiplying, however also at a rapidly decreasing rate. Overall Europe's population, and that of the EU, is declining, with female fertility in the most populous states between 1.4 and 1.7, well below the 2.1 generally associated with equilibrium. Russia is also at 1.4 and has a rather poor public health and mortality situation. Interestingly it is the French and the Brits who with fertilities closer to 1.8 who lead the pack among the major European states, however, even these rates spell decline for them.

My point is still valid. It is a favorite one as you say, not because I delight in the outcome, (I don't), but because it is such an important, but often ignored, fact in the contemporary world. In the long run it will be far more significant than our current debates about the issues of the day.
0 Replies
 
theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 06:25 am
Quote:
The only real differences I see are that Germany is far less angry and resentful and that the populations of all the European states are now declining at increasing rates.


Wow, that's the best you can do? Those are the changes that you've noticed in 70 years of development, the unification of Europe into a single union with a united currency, the emergence of the world from the great depression, the arrival and departure of the cold war.... Oh screw it.

Yes. Europe is exactly the same as it was. Nothing has changed in close to a century. The situation is not at all different.

<cough cough>

And yes, the middle east is exactly the same as 1930s EUROPE! You can easily tell because of how sandy France is, and the strict islamic law in Germany and the dictator in charge of Belgium...

Have I made my point yet?

<sigh>

Quote:
Antibuddha uses the pronoun "they", so I suppose he is not American.


I bow before your deduction and humbly profer my Australian passport.

Quote:
I have no idea what he might mean by the "unilateral, elitist. and restrictive" policies we have supposedly applied.


Then by all means ask.

I meant that America makes its decisions for other countries unilaterally without consulting them or involving their opinions into their decision making processes.

If you think claiming that other countries do the same thing is an effective defense to someone decrying the claim of american moral superiority then you may wish to examine that logic just a little...

I mean that it has elitist policies which hold non-americans and americans to different standards and degrees of importance.

I mean that it has restrictive policies when it disallows other countries their own decision-making processes and simply imposes its own will upon them.

Quote:
The idea of a "world democratic process" is an illusion given the average level of political development of states in the world.


If America were truly dedicated to spreading democracy then perhaps they would have worked a bit on the world democratic process rather than simply assuming their own unilateral decisions.

Quote:
With Zimbabwe and Cuba sitting on the UN human rights commission, it is difficult for serious people to take that organization seriously.


Yeah, what moronic country designed that organisation... <cough cough> And to think that a country that withdrew from the international criminal court after being found guilty of terrorism would be on the security commission makes us wonder how its advice on dealing with terrorism could possibly be taken seriously.

Quote:
Physgrad's insights are accurate and he/she should beware of the sophistry and babble shown here in response so far.


Yes, the ever pure and intelligent Physgrad must beware because with the evil communist mindpowers that we possess other debaters on this forum (who might not even be americans!) could somehow trick him into accepting our clearly false and stupid arguments that despite Physgrad's accurate insight he may be unable to spot without your warning...

Perhaps Physgrad is capable of making up his own mind without you holding his hand.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 06:29 am
In 2004, France increasing birth rate hits the 1983 level with 1.9 %
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 07:00 am
Francis wrote:
In 2004, France increasing birth rate hits the 1983 level with 1.9 %


Interesting to know this. My source, and the data which I used, was the CIA World Factbook for 2003 (the most recent, public edition). There France is listed with 1.8. This growth is encouraging to me - I am delighted by it. Well, perhaps -- will there be more Chiracs in this new generation?

I believe the recent decline in fertility in Europe is a fact of much greater potential significance than the EU or the friction between Europe and America. If it is sustained, it could bring about the collapse of the social and political order in that continent - a lamentable outcome in my view. A resurgence is both possible and desirable. Is the recent reversal peculiar to France, or is it more widespread?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 07:07 am
It is believed that it will increase in Germany as well - mainly due to the fact that the rate in eastern German states is as low as 1.2 .
0 Replies
 
 

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