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Understanding America and the Bush administration

 
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 03:39 pm
c.i. - LOL

<ok, so i'm an animal advocate, not a 'speller'>
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:00 pm
Stradee, Have you noticed my 'new' tag line? Wink
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Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:09 pm
c.i, you are so funny! <and forgiven> Smile

btw, saw the terrific Antartica photos you posted! What a neat trip, ci!
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Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:39 pm
Stradee wrote:
c.i, you are so funny! <and forgiven> Smile

btw, saw the terrific Antartica photos you posted! What a neat trip, ci!


I've been looking for new pics at the Roost too, Cicerone.

Hey Stradee...... didn't recognize you in your new name. I came here looking for the rainforest threads but got sidetracked by a political thread where some clown was posting that bu$h was a genius.
It only took 3 or 4 posts from me to have the usual crowd whining that I shouldn't talk about their fake pRes like that. Sheeze all I did was tell the truth.

Thanks for the links to your threads.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:57 pm
People were just trying to get her to substantiate ONE accusation.

She says one of the Republicans dirtiest tricks is asking liberals questions, and trying to get them to answer...

We about peed ourselves.
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 05:06 pm
Maggie, glad you found the threads. Do you remember Aa from abuzz?
She posted the very first Rainiforest thread, then other abuzz members began topics for each new thread. ehBeth began the new threads here at a2k, plus husker began a thead at the seattle site after abuzz went off-line.

We're really happy with the success of the threads and the teams efforts, and its always good seeing faces from abuzz here at a2k.

LOL, why am I not surprised you'd find a thread revering the prez as a 'genius' of all things. yikes

Hang in there, Mags! Cool
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Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 05:18 pm
Lash wrote:
People were just trying to get her to substantiate ONE accusation.

She says one of the Republicans dirtiest tricks is asking liberals questions, and trying to get them to answer...

We about peed ourselves.


Mags is a formidable opponent, fighting for liberal causes most of her life. Perhaps she felt there was no reason to substantiate whats been proven to her as truth.

Charmin?
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:07 pm
Lash wrote:
People were just trying to get her to substantiate ONE accusation.

She says one of the Republicans dirtiest tricks is asking liberals questions, and trying to get them to answer...

We about peed ourselves.


Yep........ you repugs do a lot of peeing then, don't you Lash?!

What you just posted here is nothing short of a bald faced lie. I said that you repugs seem to think that liberals or anyone who opposes you has to give a source for our opinions. I also said that you seem to think that liberals have to answer your questions.

I stated my opinion on several matters. I don't have to answer your questions. Get over youself. You are not that important to me.

As I told you in the other thread, the one thing that I know that irritates you holier than thou hypocrites is that I don't give a hoot what you say or think about me. Got it?
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:12 pm
Stradee wrote:
Maggie, glad you found the threads. Do you remember Aa from abuzz?
She posted the very first Rainiforest thread, then other abuzz members began topics for each new thread. ehBeth began the new threads here at a2k, plus husker began a thead at the seattle site after abuzz went off-line.

We're really happy with the success of the threads and the teams efforts, and its always good seeing faces from abuzz here at a2k.

LOL, why am I not surprised you'd find a thread revering the prez as a 'genius' of all things. yikes

Hang in there, Mags! Cool


Yes, I remember Aa. AND eBeth. I didn't know you guys were so active. Great. I participate in a lot of Environmental issues.

I got tired of the genius thread in a hurry. The gag reflex can only handle so much before one is overwhelmed.
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Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:42 pm
Magginkat wrote:
Stradee wrote:
Maggie, glad you found the threads. Do you remember Aa from abuzz?
She posted the very first Rainiforest thread, then other abuzz members began topics for each new thread. ehBeth began the new threads here at a2k, plus husker began a thead at the seattle site after abuzz went off-line.

We're really happy with the success of the threads and the teams efforts, and its always good seeing faces from abuzz here at a2k.

LOL, why am I not surprised you'd find a thread revering the prez as a 'genius' of all things. yikes

Hang in there, Mags! Cool


Yes, I remember Aa. AND eBeth. I didn't know you guys were so active. Great. I participate in a lot of Environmental issues.

I got tired of the genius thread in a hurry. The gag reflex can only handle so much before one is overwhelmed.


I saw your posts at the thread and am glad you joined the clicking team.
They're a good group of people! Luv the envrionmental threads at The Roost also! Keep up the good work Mags!

When I see a forum with the prez and genius words in the same sentence, I skip the reading for the same reasons. LOL
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 09:27 am
Magginkat wrote:

Yep........ you repugs do a lot of peeing then, don't you Lash?!

What you just posted here is nothing short of a bald faced lie. I said that you repugs seem to think that liberals or anyone who opposes you has to give a source for our opinions. I also said that you seem to think that liberals have to answer your questions.

I stated my opinion on several matters. I don't have to answer your questions. Get over youself. You are not that important to me.

As I told you in the other thread, the one thing that I know that irritates you holier than thou hypocrites is that I don't give a hoot what you say or think about me. Got it?


One of the good things about Able to Know has been the relatively low level of vitriolic nonsense, such as that quoted above. I would hope that Maggin would refrain a bit from infecting this forum with that unfortunate characteristic of ABUZZ. I believe that most of us here don't want to see more of it.

The use of terms such as "repugs" illuminates nothing and contributes nothing to the common understanding. Assertions that you don't care a bit about the reactions of others to your comments or beliefs are contradicted by your presence here. Either behave more like an adult or go elsewhere.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 09:45 pm
Magginkat wrote:
Lash wrote:
People were just trying to get her to substantiate ONE accusation.

She says one of the Republicans dirtiest tricks is asking liberals questions, and trying to get them to answer...

We about peed ourselves.


Yep........ you repugs do a lot of peeing then, don't you Lash?!
Daily. Why afraid to answer a question about your bizarre claims?
What you just posted here is nothing short of a bald faced lie.
Nah. How would you know what a lie is? Your list of complaints about Bush came out of the X-Files...
I said that you repugs seem to think that liberals or anyone who opposes you has to give a source for our opinions.
Ah Repugs... Been a long time since we had someone here of your calibre.... Thought all the trash had been taken out.
I also said that you seem to think that liberals have to answer your questions. They generally want to when they know what they're talking about. Most people like to prove what they say is accurate...when it is.

I stated my opinion on several matters. I don't have to answer your questions. Get over youself. You are not that important to me.
Obviously, neither is the truth--accuracy--respect for yourself or this forum...
As I told you in the other thread, the one thing that I know that irritates you holier than thou hypocrites is that I don't give a hoot what you say or think about me. Got it?

Get this. When you spew crap across the screen, you will be challenged to prove it. Every time. Got it?
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theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 10:58 pm
Yep........ you repugs do a lot of peeing then, don't you Lash?!
Daily.

Very Happy <falls off his chair with laughter, gets back on and starts applauding> Very Happy
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 01:17 am
blatham wrote:
Traumatized by the terrorist attacks of Sept 11, 2001, Americans very naturally reacted by falling back on old patterns of belief and behavior. Among these patterns has been American nationalism. This nationalism embodies beliefs and principles of great and permanent value for America and the world, but it also contains very great dangers. Aspects of American nationalism imperil both the nation's global leadership and its success in the struggle against Islamist terrorism and revolution.

More than any other factor, it is the nature and extent of this nationalism which at the start of the twenty-first century divides the United States from a largely postnationalist Western Europe. Certain neoconservative and Realist writers have argued that American behavior in the world and American differences with Europe stem simply from the nation's possession of greater power and responsibility. It would be truer to say that this power enables America to do certain things. What it does, and how it reacts to the behavior of others, is dictated by America's political culture, of which different strands of nationalism form a critically important part.

Insofar as American nationalism has become mixed up with a chauvinist version of Israeli nationlism, it also plays an absolutely disastrous role in U.S. relations with the Muslim world and in fueling terrorism. One might say, therefore, that while America keeps a splendid and welcoming house, it also keeps a family of demons in its cellar. Usually kept under certain restraints, these demons were released by 9/11...


This book seeks to help explain why a country which after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, had the chance to create a concert of all the world's major states - including Muslim ones - against Islamist revolutionary terrorism chose instead to pursue policieis which divided the West, further alienated the Muslim world and exposed America itself to greatly increased danger. The most important reason why this has occurred is the character of American nationalism, which in this book I analyze as a complex, multifacted set of elements in the nation's political culture....

Under the administration of George W. Bush the United States drove toward empire, but the domestic political fuel fed into the engine was that of a wounded and vengeful nationalism. After 9/11, this sentiment is entirely sincere as far as most Americans are concerned, and it is all the more dangerous for that. In fact, to judge by world history, there is probably no more dangerous element in the entire nationalist mix than a sense of righteous victimhood. In the past this sentiment helped wreck Germany, Serbia and numerous other countries, and it is now in the process of wrecking Israel.

(Introduction...page 1-4)


There is nothing particularly insightful or even unique in this introduction.

As the author acknowledges, an increase in nationalism is a perfectly understandable reaction within a country which has sustained a violent attack within its borders. To the extent that an increase in Nationalism in a country is a perilous trend, the peril of US nationalism blankets the world only because of the country's power. Should Nationalism run rampant in Chad, I doubt the author will be devoting a book to the topic.

Assuming the author's premise is correct, this introduction (as with so many other commentaries from the Left) implies that the US has some sort of obligation to refrain from a kind of response that would be natural to the rest of the world, and blaze an entirely unbeaten and entirely theoretical path.

Such an argument might make sense in the face of alleged assertions that Americans (neo-con or otherwise) believe their country to have a manifest destiny born of unique position and character, except that it is always made (as it is here) by persons who find such assertions, at best, unsophisticated.

It's ironic that so much of the criticism directed at the US is based on its promise. It is even more ironic when those who are derisive of America's claims to greatness, find fault it its inability to perfectly manifest that greatness.

That America is, by all definitions, the most enlightened world power in history should not be in question. That there is nothing particularly attractive about crowing this fact should also not be in question, however the latter does not invalidate the former. Would that America were perfect, (Lord knows the world has long ago given up on Europe for such stellar leadership, and never considered Canada in the mix), but, alas, it is not. I've yet to progress through this thread, but it will be interesting to see if blatham's excerpts reveal an author who offers up a unique perspective and constructive advice, or simply more of the tired old hash.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 01:43 am
blatham wrote:
The Two Souls of American Nationalism

Like other nationalisms, American nationalism has many different faces, and this book does not pretend to explore all of them. Rather, it concentrates on what I take to be the two most important elements in the historical culture of American nationalism and the complex relationship between them...

The first of these strands in American nationalism...has been described as the "American Creed," and idea I also describe as the "American Thesis": the set of democratic, legal and individualist beliefs and principles on which the American state and constitution is founded. These principles form the foundation of American civic nationalism and also help bind the United States to the wider community of democratic states...As the term "Creed" implies, they are held with an ideological and almost religious fervor.

The second element forms what I have called the American nationalist "antithesis" and stems above all from the ethnoreligious roots. Aspects of this tradition have also been called "jacksonian nationalism,"...
Rather than the simple, monolithic identity of a Polish or Thai ethnoreligious nationalism, this tradition in the United States forms a diffuse mass of identitities and implulses, including nativist sentiments on the part of America's original White population, the particular culture of the White South and the beliefs and agendas of ethnic lobbies...

These strands in American nationalism are usually subordinate to American civic nationalism stemming from the Creed, which dominates officaial and public political culture. However, they have a natural tendency to rise to the surface in times of crisis and conflict. In the specific case of America's attachment to Israel, ethnoreligious factors have become dominant, with extremely dangerous consequences for the war on terrorism.

The reason why "civic nationalism", rather than "patriotism" is the appropriate name for the dominant strand in American political culture was well summed up in 1983 by one of the fathers of the neoconservative school in the United States, Irving Kristol: "Patriotism springs from love of the nation's past; nationalism arise out of hope for the nation's future, distinctive greatness...The goals of American foreign policy must go well beyond a narrow, too literal definition of 'national security.' It is the national interest of a world power, as this is defined by a sense of national destiny."...

If ...Kristol's distinction between patriotism and nationalism is valid, then it must be acknowledged that nationalism, rather than patriotism, is the correct word with which to describe the characteristic national feeling of Americans. And this feature also links the American nationalism of today to the unsatisfied, late-coming nationalisms of Germany, Italy and Russia, rather than to the satisfied and status-quo patriotism of the British....

One way of looking at American nationalism and the troubled relationship with the contemporary world which the nation dominates is indeed to understand that many Americans are in revot against the world which America itself has made.
(page 4-7)


I'm afraid that this passage simply reveals poor writing.

Aside from, or perhaps because of, the fact that the author plays fast and loose with the use of quotation marks, his utilization of the term "civic nationalism" (his use of "") is unclear. He writes that the so-called "American Creed," or "American Thesis," (why it was necessary to give us two coined terms is beyond me) is the foundation of civic nationalism, and then defines a second aspect of American nationalism (American nationalism "antithesis"). We are then led around the bend of comprehension by an assertion that the two strands of American nationalism ("American Creed" - the foundation of civic nationalism, and American nationalism "antithesis") are "subordinate to American civic nationalism stemming from the Creed."

Since blatham has such a high regard for this book, perhaps he can decipher this blather for us.

Why must it be acknowledged that the characteristic national feeling of Americans is "nationalistic," rather than "patriotic?"

Certainly the distinction drawn by Irving Kristol doesn't compel such an acknowledgement, and yet the author writes that this is so.

I get the impression that this passage is finding fault with America (comparing it to "late coming, unsatisfied nationalisms of Germany, Italy and Russia), but it is difficult to say for certain, because the writing is so poor.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 07:31 am
theantibuddha wrote:


Very Happy <falls off his chair with laughter, gets back on and starts applauding> Very Happy

Positively smitten... :wink:
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 09:26 am
Wow!

I hadn't seen New Perspectives Quarterly.

Some brilliant articles!!! Click around on the link for other viewpoints and new perspectives. (Getting tired of our predictable columnists.)

http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2003_spring/gardels.html
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 08:14 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Why must it be acknowledged that the characteristic national feeling of Americans is "nationalistic," rather than "patriotic?"
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 09:17 am
JTT wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Why must it be acknowledged that the characteristic national feeling of Americans is "nationalistic," rather than "patriotic?"


The Brownshirting of America
by Paul Craig Roberts

Bush's supporters demand lock-step consensus that Bush is right. They regard truthful reports that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction and was not involved in the September 11 attack on the US - truths now firmly established by the Bush administration's own reports - as treasonous America-bashing.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts75.html


Lew is obviously wrong.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 01:36 am
McGentrix wrote:


Lew is obviously wrong.

of course that's merely MY opinion...


Obviously it IS only your opinion, McG. Lew didn't even write anything. Could it be that you failed even to read the articles?


by Paul Craig Roberts

by Scott McConnell
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