Understanding America and the Bush administration

"The desire to bring freedom, democracy, and free trade to the world is genuine in the American people."

I'm relieved the American people do not wish to bring slavery, despotism, and tariffs to the world.

What do these noble ideas mean in practice? Who wouldn't be in favour of them. Its like saying you're in favour of motherhood and apple pie.

All imperialists make little excuses to mask the unpleasant tasks they have to undertake for the greater good.

Having thoroughly criticised Disraeli's empire building in s Africa when he was in opposition, Gladstone said (as prime minister) just after the bombardment of Alexandria,

The British task in Egypt was: "one which we are executing not alone, on our own behalf, but on behalf, I may say, of civilised mankind."

House of Commons 12 February 1884.


You say you are not being complacent anymore? What shocked you out of that complacency? 9/11?

so you were shocked by a monstrous crime, an act of war against the United States, into bringing freedom democracy and free trade to the world. Doesn't follow in my book.

Oralloy
You seem to concede to Steve that we are and want "Empire". Empire to me has the implication that we want to seize, control and exploit other countries permanently for our benefit only. I see no proof that we are doing that now.......the key words here are EXPLOIT and PERMANENTLY. I reject the notion that we seek any sort of Imperial Empire. What we do seek is some form of self determination for those countries that are now ruled with fear of death by the Thugs who happen to be in power.

"What about the freedom of those nations, who belong to your empire?"

Well spotted Walter!

"YOU were the ones who did the meddling and now we are trying to clean up the mess."

Well I think that's very generous of you Rayban. But don't forget we are helping you clean up our mess in Iraq, at least for the time being. Dirty business isn't it, empire building? (sorry meant cleaning).

"Britain "lost" the "North American colonies" long before our revolution..."

Now I knew someone would take me a little bit too seriously, thats why I put a little smiley thing at the end of the sentence...pity you didnt see it George.

Rest of your post I'll come back to when ive readit

Odd isn't it that the Egyptians of that day and those that followed, didn't share Gladstone's view. Instead they saw a stock fraud in which British financiers stole control of the canal company, followed by an invasion by the British army and the imposition of a protectorate. Until then Egypt had been self governoing for a rather long time - about eight thousand years.

America is also a bit self-righteous and overbearing in its rationalizations of actions taken in our self-interest. However the Gladstone example, quoted above by Steve, far eclipses our worst excess.

Not only to Steve - and 'yes', your explanation is quite correct about makes a country an 'Empire' .




Now, what is "some form of self deternination" opposed to "self determination"?

Colony?

Steve, As an American citizen, I am skeptical about the motivation of our country to bring democracy to Iraq. Bush and Powell made a case to go to war in Iraq justified on the basis of Saddam's WMDs and terrorist connections. As it turned out, there are no WMDs and terrorist connections. Bush promised jobs after his tax cuts. We now have the worst job creation in our country since Hoover. Bush said our social security program was in crisis; but his own financial experts and the GAO says otherwise. It's more likely to put our country further into debt - not solve the solvency problem of social security. Bush brought us "Leave No Child Behind." We've been closing schools like no time in history in California (and probably the whole country). I see it as "Leave No Schools Behind." It is a federal mandate with insufficient funding. Bush continues to praise our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, but our wounded soldiers coming home are not provided with proper medical care. I would like to hear from anybody what Bush has done or proposed that actually turned out well for anybody in this world.

You are rying to ignore my historically founded allegation the it was the British who did the meddling in the ME but now want to blame "Delusional" Americans. You instead fall back on the worn out conspiracy theories of the left that our government wants to keep us poor, ignorant Americans, "barefoot and pregnant" and in the dark like mushrooms so that we won't comprehend the "evil" intentions of wanting to bring a little freedom to people who have never known it.

Could it be you who is delusional and in denial?

Ok George I've had time to skim through some points

"Never mind that we do it only selectively, and have not attempted to directly govern most of the Mideast, Africa, and the Indian subcontinent as the British did until just over 50 years ago. There is a rather large difference here, and Steve simply refuses to acknowledge it."

Well you are attempting to govern Iraq directly, with our help, and are making a right pigs ear of it. If you are going to play the empire game, listen to someone (us) who've got experience.

And no you dont govern most of those areas directly. You make sure governments of whatever colour or flavour are installed to do your bidding and when they dont...you change them.

"They knowingly, and without justification, brought down an Ottoman Empire that presented no threat to them, and carved up and divided the spoils - from Syria to Yemen and Egypt (and everything in between). They abolished the Moslem Caliphate, exploited the resources of the region, betrayed both their Arab and Zionist allies,"

Turkey fought against Britain and the US in WW1. Without justification ????

You want to bring back the "Moslem caliphate"!!

And of course US oil has never exploited the resources of the region. Certainly we betrayed the Arabs...we should never have listened to Zionist demands.


"We are now, with damn little help from them, attempting to put the pieces back together and restore freedom and enlightened self-rule in the region. They can't forgive us for that, and dread the prospect of our success."

Don't be silly, or we really will pull the troops out from Basra.

"America is also a bit self-righteous and overbearing in its rationalizations of actions taken in our self-interest. However the Gladstone example, quoted above by Steve, far eclipses our worst excess."

So its a competition now is it? We are bad but they did it first and were a lot worse. Worse than what exactly? Do we include or exclude Vietnam in this fatuous analogy?

Walter your sarcasm is not lost on me.......I see it in most of your posts but that is not surprising from one who is a member of the "Super Race"

I used the term "some form of self determination" because the American form of self determination may not be best for every country.

I sincerely hope, you apologize.

During his first term, President Bush has signed into law three major tax cuts, including the largest in two decades - and since the summer of 2003, America has had the fastest-growing economy of any major industrialized nation in the world. Under President Bush's leadership, the economy has been growing at rates as fast as any in nearly 20 years. The homeownership rate has been at a record high. Interest and mortgage rates have been near historic lows. The core rate of inflation over the past year ranks among its lowest in 40 years. The rate of growth of Federal spending is slowing, jobs are being created at a brisk pace (1.3 million jobs in the first six months of this year), and the unemployment rate today remains below the average unemployment rate of the 1970s, the 1980s, and the 1990s.

President Bush signed into law the No Child Left Behind Act, the most important Federal education reform in history, one that insists that testing, accountability, and high standards will accompany record new resources. Medicare has been modernized, prescription drug coverage has been added, and Americans now have the opportunity to use Health Savings Accounts, tax-free accounts designed to help individuals save for health expenses. Faith-based groups are receiving unprecedented support and encouragement. And President Bush signed into law the most far-reaching reform of American business practices since the time of Franklin Roosevelt.

To ensure the safety of our citizens, President Bush has implemented the most sweeping changes in the organization of our national security institutions since World War II. With the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, America has seen the most extensive reorganization of the Federal government since President Truman. President Bush has proposed the most thoroughgoing reorganization of the intelligence community in more than a half century. And thanks to the USA PATRIOT Act, Federal law enforcement agencies can better share information, track terrorists, and protect American lives.

President Bush has strongly advocated open markets for American goods; affordable, reliable, and secure energy supplies; and environmental standards that are making America's water and air cleaner. In the social realm, he has championed a culture of life and a new culture of responsibility; the strengthening and defense of marriage; judges who strictly and faithfully interpret the law; and stronger work requirements for welfare recipients. He has made civility a touchstone of his rhetoric. He has put together an Administration comprising enormously talented men and women - and one with more diversity in senior positions than any in history.

Besides, there was no sarcasm at all in my response - and I do wonder additionally, how you managed to see such in most of my posts.

Steve wrote:Well I think that's very generous of you Rayban. But don't forget we are helping you clean up our mess in Iraq, at least for the time being. Dirty business isn't it, empire building? (sorry meant cleaning).

Your personal hypocracy is overwhelming. You fought your own Prime Minister (Blair) every inch of the way now you want to take credit for his accomplishments.

Walter

I apologize for using the "slur" about the "Super race". That was uncalled for but I got caught up in the heat of the moment. I confess that I have been reading this forum for several weeks and you are a very prolific writer.....can you honestly claim that you have never used some arrogance and sarcasm in your wording? Your use of English as a second language is superb but I think you would be the first to admit that some of the nuances of a language are lost on one who is still learning.

Thanks, rayban1.

Well, you see, actually I'm only using -sometimes- finest humour.
Unfortunately no-one (besides me and perhaps dys plus two, three others) notices this: those other ignorants call it 'sarcasm' or even <shudder> 'cynism'. :wink:

I have to say that Walter is totally above the very concept of arrogance, he's just simply superior.

Yeap - you were a really great teacher.

I know.

Oh, so even you believe he is a member of the "Super Race"?

Blatham

I apologize also to you for the momentary detour through the "word jungle" of arrogance, sarcasm, and cynicism. Walter I know what cynicism is but please, as the master of our language. tell me what "CYNISM" is.