Now they are burning Junot Diaz at the stake.

I respect the good parts of feminism. Pay equality, ending workplace harassment, opening up opportunities in engineering are all things I support for daughter, and for any other women.

I reject the ideological extremism that has taken over feminism. When MeToo is about ending workplace abuse of power... I support it. When MeToo paints women as weak and vulnerable with not responsibility for their own behavior, I reject it.

Is there any point where feminism gets so ridiculous that you object?

I think you get so ridiculous it's hard to take you seriously. I asked you previously to have a discussion with your immediate family that are female to gauge the depth of sexual harassment on a personal level. Have you done that?

Yes... you might be surprised to know that most women are not feminists, and many women agree with me that often feminism goes too too far to the point of being ridiculous.

Have you talked to the women in your family?

That's not what I asked you. Have the women in your life experienced some sort of sexual harassment?

Of course. What's your point?

That's one too many.

Agreed. What's your point?

Women speaking out seems to have your drawers in a tizzy. The women calling out Junot Diaz have VALID claims yet you just don't think they should be heard.

Well, they are. And will keep speaking out until one day, there is no more sexual harassment.

There are three problems with this ideology, Neptune...

1. You are treating men and women differently. In your narrative, women are always vulnerable and passive; men are always the aggressor. In every encounter, it is the man who has the responsibility. Do you accept that women do take initiative in sexual encounters, and do make unwanted advances?

If every unwanted touch, or sexual encounter, or or awkward advance is harrassment, then women are very often the harassers themselves. We are adults. Men and women flirt. Men and women seek out relationships. Sometimes things are awkward, and sometimes things get uncomfortable.

Treating adult women as passive, vulnerable targets of men's aggression is neither realistic nor good for equality.

2. You are unwilling to make a distinction between someone with no power being forced to have sex against her will with someone who has equal power being asked for sex.

Bill Cosby criminally raped women using drugs. Weinstein used his direct power to make a women successful or make her fail. We all agree that these men deserve whatever happens to them. If MeToo were about ending this... I would be cheering.

To use this in a narrative that men, and only men, are "toxic" is unreasonable. An unwanted sexual advance between peers can be uncomfortable. It isn't the same thing. Bad dates, stupid jokes, uncomfortable interactions... these things happen with both men and women.

3. You don't know any of the facts, and yet you talk as if you know exactly what happened. This is the dictionary definition of "prejudice", you are basing your feelings and emotions on your preexisting narrative of what must have happened.

Public shaming is not a way to get to justice. It is a trial of outrage played out in public media where one side gets believed without question and the other side is presumed guilty. There is no questioning, no nuance and no attempt to understand more than one side of the story.

The problem here is extremism.

Max,

You seem to want your time on the soapbox and I'm glad you've found a forum that will allow you to voice your opinion. The thing is, I too, have an opinion. Your opinion isn't any better or any worse than my opinion. I can't change your opinion any more than you can change mine.

Now, that's a fact we both get to live with.

... actually you can change my opinion.

My opinion has changed several times from discussions on Able2know. I am stating my opinions as clearly as possible in hopes that you will be able to challenge all or parts of them. I appreciate you being here and engaging with me.

I don't really get your point. We are all here by choice.

There's many problems, Max. Starting with:

1. Of course I accept women do take initiate in sexual encounters and do make unwanted advances. Women can be just as nasty as men. It's still wrong.

2. Being asked for sex isn't the issue. It's the continual pursuit after an answer of "no" is given is the issue. You are unwilling to acknowledge that "no" can be spoken, written, the use of gestures or just plain ignored.

3. You are correct, I don't know the facts. But neither do you and you talk as if you were there witnessing the exchange yourself. I could copy and paste your definition of prejudice but I'm sure you see the point.

Public shaming isn't a new concept. Beheadings, burning at the stake, scarlet letters, televised court proceedings, advertising and a whole host of demonstrations has been used to control the population.

Yes, some things do get uncomfortable, especially in dealing with Social Change. You may not believe in the #MeToo movement but it isn't going to go away. It isn't any different than women's suffrage or even riding on a bus. Yes, Max, be uncomfortable. Throw your arms up and yell all you want about how it's not fair.

And there will be someone right behind you to want change enough to push back with their voice, their experience and their opinion.

What are the first names you think of when it comes to the MeToo movement?

When I think about the Bus Boycott, I think about Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. When I think about Woman's suffrage I think about Alice Paul and Susan B. Anthony. But, when I think about MeToo, I think about Harvey Weinstein and Aziz Ansari. Do you see the difference?

Woman's suffrage was about something positive... giving women the right to vote. Rosa Parks, and the Montgomery Bus boycott was about something positive... providing African Americans with basic rights. Neither of of these movements focused on attacking people, or shaming people.

They were focused on the positive; lifting up rather than tearing down.

The focus of the MeToo movement is demonstrating how how bad men are. That is quite a bit different.

Bollocks. Me too is about how widespread sexual harassment is. Is not about how bad men are it's about how bad some creepy men are. I don't sexually harass women, they're not complaining about men like me.

In effect what you're saying is that it's perfectly fine to sexually harass women, that the victims should just shut up and bear it.

The only 'men' negatively affected by Me too are those who treat women appallingly. Those of us who like and respect women welcome it.

Then don't, I don't know anyone who does to be honest.

The #MeToo movement empowers women to come forward to share their experience and try to change the social construct in a positive manner. If that makes you, or anybody uncomfortable, then so be it.

Izzy is here!

I missed you man. I thought you were staying away.

Your short term memory is shot.

https://able2know.org/topic/461236-2#post-6651515

I've spent the last six weeks moving house so my posts have been limited.

Btw, my son just witnessed some scumbucket cat calling a couple of young girls. Stupid idiot did it from a works van. Now his employers know what he gets up to in their vehicles.

The feminist nutcases have succeeded in lynching a judge for following the law.
http://apnews.com/9be1d70223704bf89fae8646db74dd19/Recall-of-judge-in-Brock-Turner-case-stirs-courtroom-concern

Yes, it closed a loophole in which penetrative sexual assault could be punished less harshly if the victim was too intoxicated to physically resist.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/us/politics/judge-persky-brock-turner-recall.html