3
   

Now they are burning Junot Diaz at the stake.

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2018 04:07 am
@Blickered,
Quote:
He's a writer. He gets money from selling books and public appearance fees. People find what you have to say inspirational, you get a lot of money. People find what you have to say not so inspirational, you don't make as much money.


This isn't how witch hunts work. The problem isn't that people won't want to buy his books any more. There will be some people who will decide not to buy his books... but there will be many more of us who don't really care.

The problem is the political pressure from people who might not want to buy his books anyway. These people who are not his customers or admirers will put pressure on bookstores, colleges and professional associations. And with the current political climate they have far more political leverage than their numbers would suggest. If no one wants to take his class on writing and he gets removed from the schedule, that is one thing.

In spite of the charges against him, which are unproven and in my opinion rather weak, he remains a damn good writer with a unique voice. If anyone decides not to read his work because he tried to kiss another writer... that is their choice. That is not what is happening. He is getting drummed off of professional committees and losing opportunities at universities because of ideological pressure from a politically powerful minority.

If lots of people want to take his class, but people who wouldn't have taken the class anyway whine to the college to get him blacklisted... that is another thing altogether.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2018 10:05 pm
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/12929/production/_101737067_mediaitem101737066.jpg

Here is the latest victim. The charges seemed to be drummed up by a single CNN reporter who was offended personally by Morgan Freeman. She then went digging, many of the people she drug up were reluctant... and when one woman said that Morgan "crossed the line" one time, she focused on that incident.

The accusations now... flirting, ogling, hands on the back and a strange story of skirts.

He is also not bothering to tell his side of the story, realizing you can't defend yourself. There are many women who have worked with him who are sticking up for him.
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2018 10:18 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote max:
Quote:
This isn't how witch hunts work. The problem isn't that people won't want to buy his books any more. There will be some people who will decide not to buy his books... but there will be many more of us who don't really care.

The problem is the political pressure from people who might not want to buy his books anyway. These people who are not his customers or admirers will put pressure on bookstores, colleges and professional associations. And with the current political climate they have far more political leverage than their numbers would suggest. If no one wants to take his class on writing and he gets removed from the schedule, that is one thing.

Still doesn't necessarily mean he is okay. The protesters have the right to take their case to various college ruling bodies.

As an example, what about Philip Rushton, the famous white supremacist professor? He was boycotted by many people at various campuses, and rightfully so. How do we know that Díaz is necessarily different?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2018 10:32 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers,

This is a campaign of public shaming driven by a political narrative. Do you see the risks in such a thing?

The targets of this type of public shaming are assumed guilty. They story is accepted as true before they get a chance to respond... and once a story is public, the facts don't really matter. There is no fair hearing, no balance, no safeguards and no real chance to defend yourself. And there isn't even any nuance, once the outrage machine starts the criminal acts of Harvey Weinstein and the awkward date of Aziz Ansari are treated as part of the same story.

In the case where it hits national media, things get even worse. It is a one sided story with no real questions asked.

Do you see why trial by twitter might not be such a great thing?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2018 10:37 pm
@Blickers,
I invite you to step out of your political bubble for a second.

Colin Kaepernick was publicly shamed for what some people saw as disrespecting the flag. He lost his job (a job he is clearly qualified for) because of public political pressure.

If you see the injustice in this (and knowing your policial bent, I suspect you do) see if you can see the parallel with what happened to Junot Diaz, or Aziz Ansari and now Morgan Freeman. These are all people who did something that wasn't a crime, yet some people saw as disrespectful.
Sturgis
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2018 12:01 am
@maxdancona,
I've been aware of Freeman's behavior for a while. It's somewhat common knowledge and if he is destroyed, so be it. Maybe you think touchy-feely and inappropriate talk is okay, even when a person asks if to be stopped, but it is not. Does it fall under the category of criminality? Perhaps not, however, that does not mean he should not be reprimanded.

People (male, female and transgendering) have been silent for far too long. Those with power have waved that around along with career ending threats (in all industries, not just Hollywood and Wall Street/corporate America). Finally, a little bit of something to stop them.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2018 05:14 am
@Sturgis,
Quote:
if he is destroyed, so be it.


Really? This is a process that is driven by public outrage. You feel that what is happening is this case is justified, based on your reading of news stories. You (along with thousands of other people on the internet) have never met Morgan Freeman. You don't have any access to the facts other then second hand accounts published in the media...

You along with millions of other people are passing judgement, based only on second hand accounts in the media, and apparently are already certain that a harsh punishment is justified. There is no fair process. No set rules. The judgement is pre-ordained, there is no real questioning.

Are you concerned at all by the tactic of public shaming? Maybe you can point to cases where you are absolutely sure (based on whatever you have read on the internet) that you are correct in your judgement...

But can you really not see how this phenomenon of public shaming and trial by twitter might go horribly wrong? What happens when the "outrageous" behavior in question isn't something you feel should be punished (i.e. Colin Kaepernick) Do you remember "United We Stand"?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2018 12:26 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, like I said on page one:
Personally, when liberals try to hit me with their phony outrage, I just make fun of them.

I'd say it ends when everyone else responds to liberal phony outrage the same way that I do.


Do you have a better solution than convincing the world to just ridicule and ignore feminist nutcases when they make their false accusations?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 06:53 am
@oralloy,
When feminist political pressure can destroy your career, it is rather difficult to ignore it.
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 08:02 am
@maxdancona,
Quote max:
Quote:
The targets of this type of public shaming are assumed guilty. They story is accepted as true before they get a chance to respond... and once a story is public, the facts don't really matter. There is no fair hearing, no balance, no safeguards and no real chance to defend yourself.
They get a chance to respond. From what I've seen, though, with Cosby, Weinstein etc, the difficulty of making a "he said vs she said" case combined with the reluctance of previous victims to come forward led to a pattern of behavior which established itself among many people of power and wealth.

The number of witnesses coming up with the same or similar stories in important points constitutes real evidence. I don't know what Junot Díaz did or didn't do, but most of the high profile guys they've gotten so far look pretty guilty.
Agent1741
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 08:08 am
As an author if you are going to write something that could be deemed "contaversial" then its not surprising (I did not say right or wrong) that some are going to be upset by it. I remember when Salmon Rushtie wrote The Satanic Verses it created lots of controversity I guess like this. That being said right or wrong it makes for 'pr" which may help book sales! The Da Vinchi code was another example which caused lots of controversity as the Catholics did not like it so I am very sure when the movie was released lots went to see it to find out what all the fuss was about.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 10:17 am
@Blickers,
Nonsense! Public outrage is not a path toward justice.

There are lots of cases where people have been declared guilty in the court of public opinion, at great personal cost, and then later exonerated when people had time to consider the facts on both sides. An outraged public is not an impartial jury.

There are two problems

1. People believe stories that fit their preconcieved notions without question. People accused of sexual harassment are assumed guilty until proven innocent.

Most people don't even want to hear the other side of the story.

This is the reason we have a legal system, a fair system where both sides of the story can be heard and questioned by an impartial jury.

This trial by Twitter is taking the place of a real legal process... And it is meting out real punishments with no protection from the biases inherent in an angry mob.

2. The rush to justice conflates all levels of actions with no distinction between telling a dirty joke, an unwanted pat on a butt, or rape at gunpoint.

The narrative is singular and the desire is for every perceived misdeed to be severely punished without thought about balance or fairness.

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2018 02:19 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
When feminist political pressure can destroy your career, it is rather difficult to ignore it.
But if everyone mocked and ignored the feminists, they would not be able to destroy anyone's career.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 09:55 am
@Agent1741,
Agent1741 wrote:

I remember when Salmon Rushtie wrote The Satanic Verses it created lots of controversity I guess like this.


No, not like this, nothing at all like this. The then Supreme Leader of Iran put a fatwa on his head, a death sentence in effect, and he had to go into hiding protected by Special Branch. I'm sure Rushdie would rather have just pissed off a few angry women and have to put up with a bit of heckling.
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  0  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 11:59 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Colin Kaepernick was publicly shamed for what some people saw as disrespecting the flag. He lost his job (a job he is clearly qualified for) because of public political pressure.


I disagree. Kaepernick declined a renewal contract thinking he'd get a better deal or go somewhere else. It backfired. He was and still is a mediocre quarterback, hence even the Cleveland Browns have absolutely no interest in signing him.

So don't be thinking he's such a great man just because he knelt for the National Anthem. In my view, American football is the only sport that pays you during work hours to actually NOT do your job.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 05:56 pm
@neptuneblue,
You are missing the point Neptune.

Many liberals feel that Kaepernick is being blacklisted in the NFL... that he is better than many other quarterbacks, but he is being overlooked because of the stand he took. Many conservatives believe that Kaepernick is disrespecting women the flag.

I am offering this as an example of hypocrisy, liberals are upset when Kaepernick is "blacklisted" for for offending people, and yet support when the same happens to people like Junot Diaz. How you feel about Kaepernick is beside the point.

It's politics, not principle.
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 06:25 pm
@maxdancona,
Oh jeez, manspaining is just so yesterday.

It's not how I "feel" about it, it's the truth. Colin isn't an A lister. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/sports/kaepernick-tracker/?utm_term=.4001d389271a

I see no hypocrisy, except coming from you.

I didn't know about Junot Diaz until your post, I did a little research and came up with -- what goes around, comes around, He wrote a book about his life, that because he was sexually abused in his life, he turned that into misogynistic behavior. Now he's butt hurt because the women he treated poorly called him out publicly. If he wanted to cash in on his success of his book, well, ok, but there's always the negative side.

He could have kept his experiences quiet, turned to therapy and vowed to be a better person because of it. But he wants to tout both his pain and his triumphs. The thing is, his triumphs were other people's pain. And if they get their 15 minutes of fame just to call him out on his bullshit, I'm totally ok with it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 07:13 pm
@neptuneblue,
Quote:
Oh jeez, manspaining is just so yesterday.


1. The word "mansplaining" doesn't refer to any time a man expresses an opinion. If feminism means "women can speak, men should just shut up" then the word "equality" is a farce.

2. The MeToo movement has become so broad judging the actions of men, and so silent on any actions of women, that it has become ridiculous. When it comes to ending abuse of power in the workplace... I am on board.

The idea any time an adult woman is offended a man is at fault. That is where we are.

3. It is a cliche that feminism is about equality. Equality doesn't mean destroying the careers of every man who is accused by any woman for any thing.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 07:16 pm
@maxdancona,
Feminism is very much like Patriotism. Both of them sound positive... things that should be used to lift up people and build bridges. It is a shame that they are most often used as a club, to beat down people who don't conform.
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2018 07:18 pm
@maxdancona,
We all know your views on feminism. And the #MeToo movement, And equality.

As much as you protest, you should join the cause .
 

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