Proposal accepted, rejected

Welcome, John, to A2K.

Putting aside your current discomfit for a moment, what do you think motivated her to say, "If you ask, I'll say yes"?

Second thoughts -- hell, even reneged commitments -- are more common than one would believe (and I realize this is cold comfort to you).

It appears she needed you to commit before she could, and now that you passed that test, she's back to her previous state of mind. Uncertainty. So she doesn't need to do any more growing as it relates to your relationship, mostly because there is no fear of loss on her part any more.

Fear of loss will now be the test you will have to eventually apply, to see if the relationship is strong enough to survive it.

The truth is you may have a wonderful lifetime relationship with this person despite what appears to this casual observer as a rather manipulative toying with of your emotions. The only real question there is: can you get over it? Especially if she does it again? And maybe again?

Relationships, in the beginning, are all about risk, so keep the reward side of the equation in mind as you contemplate your future together.

And all the best to you both.

Reneged
My fiance has never been manipulative, simply very adamant in her feelings about certain things. Where usually she is very understanding and compromising, there are one or two subjects she's strong as steel on and this is one of them. That she was able to put her adamant stance against marriage aside and say yes was a large sign of her feelings for me, I feel. Still devastating for me, however.

Re: Proposal accepted, rejected


Is it possible that your word "needed" there points to the problem? To a lot of people the idea that someone "needs" marriage brings up an idea that they are ummm... clingy. (not the best word for it but I think it gets the idea across).

Is she balking because of the concept of marriage in general or because of the "need" for it on your part?

Need
It is the thought that I would not feel complete without marriage that bothers her, but the long term issue for her has been simply the institution. That I may not feel complete without the institution is the clincher. However, she knows that I do not need to marry her to be with her, or to feel committed to her - but the idea that I might need it seems to stick in her mind and it makes her balk.

What sort of ceremony are we talking about? St. Patrick's Cathedral at high noon with fifteen bridesmaids and hundreds on the guest list? A quiet ceremony at a Magistrate's Office?

Does she object to pledging her troth in the presence of God? Or before the community as representated by friends and neighbors? Does she feel that true love should not be tied down by formal, legal ceremony?

Troth
She doesn't believe in any of those things - to her, it doesn't make sense because the relationship is between two people, not anyone else. Having some person she doesn't know sign our commitment into writing doesn't make sense to her. I've offered to do things nontraditionally; even having it done swimming with dolphins, but even that isn't acceptable. It's basically that she doesn't want the institution of marriage. But she was willing to do it until she thought that I would feel 'held back' in some kind of way if we didn't get married. I guess I'm old fashioned and although I can spend the rest of my life with her and be fine, I won't feel as secure in the relationship as I would if we were married. It's a small difference, but larger now because she's reneged on it.

Are there differences in your family backgrounds? What I'm trying to determine is perhaps she's against the institution of marriage because of her experiences growing up. If you came from a traditional family backgroud with two parents in the household and her background was entirely different then that might explain her lack of wanting to be married and your desire for it.

And..
Another thing to add is that she seemed to balk at the whole thing a month or so before this happened. She didn't say as much, but she asked sourly why I wanted to get married. The conversation evaporated quickly that time.

I can't help but to wonder if this does have something to do with a fear of lifelong commitment, as she has brought up many times her pessimism toward marraiges (that they don't work out) - and how her parents are unhappily married.

Getting married can, and often does, change the dynamics of the relationship forever.

You note that getting married will give you more of a sense of security in the relationship. You said:

"I guess I'm old fashioned and although I can spend the rest of my life with her and be fine, I won't feel as secure in the relationship as I would if we were married. It's a small difference, but larger now because she's reneged on it. "

How would that enhanced sense of security be reflected in your marriage? In some instances, married partners start taking each other for granted or start treating each other with less respect or start abusing their partners because they view marriage a license to possess and control the other. .

One poster (in another thread) basically stated the "implied safety" of marriage allowed his (or at least some spouses) to become verbal and physical abusers.

Marriage will cause the dynamics of the relationship to change and it may empower some spouses and diminish others.

I think your girlfriend / fiance has just cause to wonder why you need greater security in the relationship. How would getting married and acquiring that greater feeling of security change you?

Just cause
She's only voiced a lack of understanding on why marriage should have any significance to me, not worries over how I might change afterward. For me the added security would simply make me more comfortable with long term decisions such buying a house, making large sacrifices such as giving up a big job for a move, or having kids. I think it's conventional to think that someone who is very negative toward the idea of marriage before you even met them is not ambivalent toward it and worried about me. They have their own reasons that have everything to do with them. She's said she is dead certain I'm her one and only, and she's never lied to me.

More background... do you mind sharing your ages? My first husband was hell-bent on marriage and I agreed mostly to get everyone off my back. Not the ideal mental state to start off a marriage and certainly part of why he's now my ex and not my current. I was 19 at the time which, even 30 years ago, was way too young to get married. Are you much older than she? If so, you might be looking to those 'settling down' things such as buying a house and having children as you've said when she is still trying to figure out if she wants any of those things.

Age
I am 25 and she is 27

Do you have any idea why she proposed that you propose to her to begin with?

John - Welcome to A2K, first of all.

I find this thread interesting because I went through something similar recently. Back last August is actually when it all started.

The guy I was dating wanted to get married. I didn't. I guess, with me, it was a combination of things. I do believe strongly in the institution of marriage. I just didn't feel ready to take that step. (for my own personal reasons.)

He said it was ok....but when you are close to someone, you know when words are just words. I knew it really wasn't "ok."

So, as the weeks went by....I slowly felt myself backing away from him. Of course he felt that too.

Eventually, I decided that I was not what was best for him. He didn't agree.

The whole thing was difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to do what I felt was right. What was right to me was to let him go. He deserves the wife-marriage-children, his heart desires.

Am I afraid of marriage, like your girlfriend? I don't know, honestly. I just know that I believe there is a "right" person for everyone. And when you meet that person, you want everything with them. And you both deserve to have your heart-mind-body, in harmony with each other.

What if she never agrees to get married? Can you live with that? For some people marriage is just a piece of paper. For others, like yourself, it is so much more.

I hope it works out for you.

Re: And..


In her mind -- rationally or irrationally, consciously or unconsciously -- she fears that marriage will signal the possible or inevitable doom of the relationship and reap unhappiness.

My man and I have lived together for several years. I am certain that HE is the ONE and ONLY ONE for me. I don't want anyone else. He feels the same way. He asked me to marry him the first year we were together. I said, "YES!"

So why don't we get married? Hmmmmm. We really enjoy our relationship and it doesn't appear that either one of us wants to rock the proverbial boat. . . .