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Anti Americanism and Anti Europeanism!!

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Feb, 2003 06:57 pm
IronLionZion
Let's have some specifics. Pre date Bush.
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hitchhiker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Feb, 2003 07:31 pm
There were lots of short cuts in the construction of the world trade center but most people are not willing to hear about it.
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 08:12 am
Setanta,

I agree that many Europeans are religious.

My point was perhaps unjustified, but I do have a sense that Americans tend to view right and wrong as more absolute and less relative than Europeans. As a country founded by radical religious emigrants from Europe, it does not surprise me that this holds a certain sway over the attitudes of the USA.

The way in which Bush refers (sometimes obliquely) to the role of God in the nation's politics seems quite frightening to most Europeans, who try to keep politics and religion separate on a "value" level, however influential one may be over the other in terms of appointments, etc..

The radical Right in Europe is not very powerful, despite Le Pen's partial success in France, mainly due to the political system and the divisions of the Left.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 08:58 am
kitchenpete

Quote:
As a country founded by radical religious emigrants from Europe, it does not surprise me that this holds a certain sway over the attitudes of the USA.


When did the concept of religious and economic freedom become radical? Radical and religious emigrants indeed. Do you include freedom from tyranny as a radical concept as well?
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 09:17 am
au1929,

Those who left Europe for religious reasons did so because their views were not tolerated. I agree!

The reason that they were not tolerated was that, at the time of the founding fathers, religious conformity was upheld by the law and societal pressure in many European countries.

Therefore, it was only the "radicals" who felt the need to leave...you see my point? It wasn't meant as an attack on anyone.

Economic freedom is an issue I haven't addressed. Perhaps you would like to give your views of the lack of economic freedom in Europe, if that is your view. We certainly pay higher taxes! KP
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 09:49 am
Quote:
The reason that they were not tolerated was that, at the time of the founding fathers, religious conformity was upheld by the law and societal pressure in many European countries
.
True, but can it be called radical to want to practice your own religion? From my view it was the oppression of the powers to be that be that brought them to these shores.
As for the great influx of immigrants to this nation, after it's founding, They came here for the freedom of opportunity they did not experience in Europeor in many instances freedom from oppresion. People were, especially in eastern Europe little more than serfs. In fact that is the reason they continue to come from third world countries.
Sorry I got a little twisted out of shape but the term "radical religious emigrants "raised a few hackle
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 10:18 am
au, it was, and is, considered to be very radical if you wish to practice a religion which is not accepted by the mainstream of your community. I'm not suggesting that the mainstream is actually practicing a particular religion or group of religions, but there have always been religions which are more or less, or not at all, acceptable (and these of course vary by location and time).





ok - way too many commas in there, but i'm not in the mood to edit
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 10:55 am
seems odd to me that the very same people coming to america for religious freedom were the same ones that became religious dictators when they got here.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 11:04 am
au1929 wrote:
Will wonders never cease. I agree with Tres.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. Very Happy

Thank you for saying so, by the way. (!!!) I know we've had some heated exchanges, but for my side I try to make it about the issue, and appreciate knowing you and others who can do the same.

Regards,
TW
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 11:10 am
I understand your point on religious radicals, kitchenpete. I would have to mull it over before agreeing or disagreeing, but I see what you are saying. For the effect to have carried over for so many centuries, Australia must be a hotbed of criminal activity, though. I offer no opinion on the latter, but couldn't we expect for either both or neither conditions to hold true?

No offence taken, by the way.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 03:17 pm
kitchenpete
Obviously the it's a question of semantics. I would never term people who came or come to the US for religious freedom as radicals, however as they say in the eyes of the beholder.
I will however pose a question to you. In the late 19th and early 20th century there was a large immigration of Jews from Russia and Poland. The came here to escape the progoms and other indignities visited on them because of their religion. Based on your definition since they were not of the established religions of the countries from whence the came they would be called religious radicals. I cannot rationalize nor can I agree.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Feb, 2003 03:30 pm
i am not sure what kitchenpete is referencing but certainly many if not most of the very early settlers were indeed radicals who were not longer welcome in their native lands based on their extremism. these same folks established religious authoritarian communities in the new america as well.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 04:37 pm
"life is just a bowl of pits"-- Rodney Dangelfield
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 06:16 pm
Not all humans are pro Americans.( some are).
And not all eurpeons are anti Americans( a handful of few)
Most of the innocents are not Americans nor Europeans.
my name is Rama
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anton
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 06:34 pm
I agree with Relay, Americans should ask why they are the most hated country on the planet and why they are being attacked; you can't cure a sickness by treating the symptoms you must find the cause of the sickness; ask yourselves why you are being attacked, when you discover that you are half way to finding a cure.

Here's another hypothetical; if a foreign power attacked and occupied the United States I am sure many of her citizens would take to the hills to fight back against that foreign power but would those fighters be considered patriots or terrorists? The answer to that question will depend on which side of the line you stand, the foreign power will undoubtedly see them as terrorists but the fighters will consider themselves patriots, so you see it is a very fine line between patriots and terrorists. Terrorists have no weapons of mass destruction, no depleted uranium tipped bombs, no cluster bombs and no super-sonic aircraft and no nuclear weapons they have only their courage and ingenuity to hit back at the aggressors. Stop interfering in the politics of other sovereign nations then you will have nothing to worry about!
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 06:43 pm
if i revive a thread which is more than 5 years old.
am i a person without any decency?
or.............
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hanno
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 10:56 pm
Relay wrote:
I have read some essays in swedish newspapers about a growing anti Europeanism in America. How true is that and why do it grew. What do you who live in america think about that? Do it fit with your own image of what Europe is or does it not.

I am from Europe myself and some of my beliefs can be taken as anti american. But is it really anti american to critizise america in a sensible way as i often do?

After World trade center i hoped americans should try to look at themselves and try to find out why they was attacked. ( no attack happen without reason)

I have also critizised the attack against Afghanistan and i have even read it was a success. (if it is a success when the prime objective to find Bin Laden never was fulfilled)

I have read and heard how americans react and that made my respect for the country to decrease.

Please help me to restore that respect by NOT ATTACK ME AS A PERSON.


To look at ourselves in the sense of like, why do they hate us that much? What's the point, buy the ticket take the ride. In the sense of, why are they more desperate than we are and how should we react - absolutely - I mean, we got caught thinking happy thoughts while someone else was thinking unhappy ones, it was a hell of a wakeup call and I'd say we're still too enamored with our happy thoughts along with being disillusioned with the stopgap measures. We need to harden the hell up, and McCain's just the man to help us do it.

As far as making it worse by throwing some weight around - I guess, but let's not count on them holding back, when you're boned you're boned. Let's at least not die with swords in our belts.

I object to European criticism of America in the sense of it being something we should do something about (in the sense of them whining about crap, it's their way, lot of people in a small space...). But we made Europe what it is today, and as it is it's lacking a lot of sovereignty that WWII proved it's better off without. I mean, just cuz they were warmongers then, and eunuchs now, must we be judged for our lack of shame? If so, what's the penalty? Should we not be absolved for that very reason?

And in turn I'm often critical of Europe. I don't monitor their news and international business, with anything but academic curiosity, a lot of the ways they operate would make my skin crawl if I had to live with 'em - like religious political parties - but they're small enough countries to be enfranchised like that and to each his own. But when they get in the way, and oft times for stupid reasons like France needing attention and being in Opec's pocket... And when that happens I rescind my usual passive tolerance - I mean people who live in glass houses...
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Apr, 2008 02:07 pm
A sharp succint sincere observation.
After 11th septmber USA is not united.
NOR GERMANY IS UNITED AFTER THE DEATH OF COMMUNIST

"And the song, from beginning to end
I found again in the heart of a friend."
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anton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Apr, 2008 11:20 pm
hanno wrote:
I object to European criticism of America in the sense of it being something we should do something about (in the sense of them whining about crap, it's their way, lot of people in a small space...). But we made Europe what it is today, and as it is it's lacking a lot of sovereignty that WWII proved it's better off without. I mean, just cuz they were warmongers then, and eunuchs now, must we be judged for our lack of shame? If so, what's the penalty? Should we not be absolved for that very reason?

And in turn I'm often critical of Europe. I don't monitor their news and international business, with anything but academic curiosity, a lot of the ways they operate would make my skin crawl if I had to live with 'em - like religious political parties - but they're small enough countries to be enfranchised like that and to each his own. But when they get in the way, and oft times for stupid reasons like France needing attention and being in Opec's pocket... And when that happens I rescind my usual passive tolerance - I mean people who live in glass houses...


You need to stop believing your own fiction, Europe as been around for a couple of thousand years not just 300 and don't go telling me you saved Europe in the Second World War, the British and her Commonwealth were fighting the Third Reich for two years before Hitler declared war on the US; the war was all but won when you were dragged in.
I'm very glad the US was brought into the fray, they were undoubtably part of the team and they were far enough away from the conflict and had enough money to help arm the British and the Russians. The US was the only country to get rich from the Second World War and "yes" I came through that war in Europe.

One of the reasons your country is so disliked is partially due to arrogance!
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:33 am
Anton
Haven't you kind of agreed that the U.S. had a big part in the winning of the second world war in Europe. A larger part than Europe had in winning the war in the Asian section. What many of you europeans forget is we fought a two front war without much help from our allies in the asian section.
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